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European Union Brexit

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For those that haven't been following.

 

This is kinda surprising since everyone was saying the the "remain" side was favored and had an advantage.  What are people's thoughts? 

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My personal thoughts for what they're worth :P 

 

I think UK should of stayed in the EU, there are clear advantages to stay and outweigh the ones for leaving.  That said, I can sort of understand why people want to leave.  It seems like the EU has been drifting from crisis to crisis the past few years with no sign of stopping, the EU has poorly handled all of these crises.  The EU imo, is in need of some change and reform, it is far from perfect but it is still a much better alternative than going at it alone like the British people have chosen imo.  One of America's closest friends and allies has chosen to weaken its military, to make itself less relevant, and weaken its own economy.  That is a shame. 

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I think the EU needs a lot of fixing (not that the US doesn't, but that's a different topic), so I can understand why people would want to leave. That said, I feel like they should have tried to make changes in the EU instead of just abandoning it entirely. At least give it a try, I don't think people would be nearly as divisive on the issue if it was clear that the UK had tried for years to fix the EU's problems and failed.

 

On the "silver lining" side, Scotland may finally get independence and Northern Ireland might finally vote to rejoin Ireland proper so that's interesting.

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On the "silver lining" side, Scotland may finally get independence and Northern Ireland might finally vote to rejoin Ireland proper so that's interesting.

That would screw the UK over even more if it happens, a UK without Scotland and Northern Ireland would be drastically weakened. 

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Put it this way - nobody in their right mind would go around asking some random bogan on the street to perform brain surgery. Why the fuck would you get the public to decide on a complex, geopolitical and economic question, especially when they are easily swayed by the xenophobic garbage that comes from the likes of pond scum like Farage? You look on Twitter and you see all these people lamenting their vote, saying things like, "Oh, I didn't realise it was going to be like this" or "I didn't think it would win so I voted leave"; and some indications that there were those who didn't know what the EU was before voting. Seriously, those people should not have offspring. Do the human race a favour.

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I'm just sad David Cameron resigned :(

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It will no doubt hurt the UK economically for a while. Not only is the pound dropping in value, interest rates will probably rise and trade should be more difficult. That being said, I wouldn't want a body outside my nation deciding on my nation's immigration policy. From what I understand, any EU citizen can move or work in the UK without the UK having the ability to restrict it. 

Scotland voted down independence not long ago, but since they favored staying in the EU, they may pass independence now.

The next two most likely to leave are probably France and the Netherlands. We'll see what happens...

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It's pure lunacy.

 

And yes, freedom of movement is a cornerstone principle of the EU. It's what allowed me to move to Switzerland (though through Switzerland signing up to that treaty separately), it's what allowed 90% of my closest friends to move to the UK/Switzerland/Spain/Germany. I wouldn't have had that any other way, as I've met some incredible people and shared in their varied cultures and lives through it.

 

It's a sad day when David Cameron resigns and I can't even be happy about it.

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 That being said, I wouldn't want a body outside my nation deciding on my nation's immigration policy. From what I understand, any EU citizen can move or work in the UK without the UK having the ability to restrict it. 

To be fair British people had the same ability to do so, move to other countries etc.  They could of easily solved this problem and its concerns though from the inside of the EU with some sensible reforms/ compromises. 

 

 

Scotland voted down independence not long ago, but since they favored staying in the EU, they may pass independence now.

 

The next two most likely to leave are probably France and the Netherlands. We'll see what happens...

 

I agree, Scotland is gonna hold another referendum and most likely its gonna pass this time.  I disagree that France and Netherlands will leave the EU, I think that the factions who desire separation from the EU will grow and become more emboldened but I don't think those two will be pushed to leave. 

 

It's a sad day when David Cameron resigns and I can't even be happy about it.

I didn't really follow the guy, or know much about him, but when I did hear him speak and saw him on tv, I always thought he was a nice and sensible guy.  

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I don't believe the UK should stop people from immigrating to there, I just believe a sovereign nation should not be forced to accept foreigners (to live) if they do not want to.

House....if the UN told us who we must allow to live in the U.S., would you be OK with that? I don't think too many Americans would and I don't think many would feel the need to compromise anything to the UN.

 

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I don't believe the UK should stop people from immigrating to there, I just believe a sovereign nation should not be forced to accept foreigners (to live) if they do not want to.

 

House....if the UN told us who we must allow to live in the U.S., would you be OK with that? I don't think too many Americans would and I don't think many would feel the need to compromise anything to the UN.

The UN is a different entity than the EU.  One of the cornerstone policies of the EU was the freedom of movement of capital and people, the UK knew that when they wanted into the EU.  Regardless from some viewpoints that I've heard from, people think the EU is some over arching evil entity that the UK was slave of.  The UK is the second largest economy in the EU, they had the power and influence to attempt to change the policy from within.  The fact that they didn't try to before leaving is foolish.  The primary concern from what I've seen, was the refugees and immigrants from the middle east coming to the UK not other legitimate Europeans.  Legitimate European citizens who came and worked in the UK helped the UK (paying taxes etc).  

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I don't believe the UK should stop people from immigrating to there, I just believe a sovereign nation should not be forced to accept foreigners (to live) if they do not want to.

 

House....if the UN told us who we must allow to live in the U.S., would you be OK with that? I don't think too many Americans would and I don't think many would feel the need to compromise anything to the UN.

The UN is a different entity than the EU.  One of the cornerstone policies of the EU was the freedom of movement of capital and people, the UK knew that when they wanted into the EU.  Regardless from some viewpoints that I've heard from, people think the EU is some over arching evil entity that the UK was slave of.  The UK is the second largest economy in the EU, they had the power and influence to attempt to change the policy from within.  The fact that they didn't try to before leaving is foolish.  The primary concern from what I've seen, was the refugees and immigrants from the middle east coming to the UK not other legitimate Europeans.  Legitimate European citizens who came and worked in the UK helped the UK (paying taxes etc).  

 

You say this like the UK joined the EU recently, when it reality it's been there from the start. The UK was a member of two of the major predecessors of the EU, the Western European Union (formed 1948), as well as the European Economic Community (formed 1957, UK joined 1973), the EU itself was formed in 1993 mostly from members of these organizations, including the UK. I'm not saying it's the best idea for the UK to leave, but the EU is much different from what it started as, as well as what it's predecessors were.

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Normally I don't discuss politics because I don't want to be reminded about those scumbags calling themselves politicians, but I'll make an exception this time.

 

It is evident that most of you non-Europeans don't know enough about the EU, so I will explain how it is to be a member of the group. For those of you who don't know me yet, I'm a farmer so I live and work in a rural area. Being a farmer in the EU means that you are not allowed to get fully paid for your crops, so instead you receive financial aid which continuously decreases by every year. In order to receive the aid though, you have to comply with lots of regulations and fill all the applications correctly and in time every year. I'm not going to bother you with details about the regulations, but suffice it to say that they are becoming more absurd every period (which normally lasts 5 years).

 

But that's not all. There are age limits for some grants (18, 40, 65, 68) as well as age limits for when you are allowed to buy more land (55). I think some of these limits have now been abolished, but not all of them. Furthermore, some useful pesticides are forbidden. They claim that the chemicals are harmful for the pollinators, although several studies have shown that it's not the case. The member countries can be excepted from the prohibition - as Finland - but you have to ask for an exception every year. There are probably more obstacles that I can't think of right now, but the important thing to remember is that the agricultural policy is union-wide, so all farmers in the EU are affected.

 

I do not know why a slight majority of the Brits voted the way they did, but I suspect they have similar difficulties as we farmers have and can understand them. Before you judge the British voters too harshly, ask yourself: would you want to live every day being constantly harrassed by (foreign) authorities (who doesn't know a thing about your profession) and treated like a third class citizen? If you answer yes to that, then you should definitely consider becoming a farmer in the EU, because that's how things are here. The economy in Britain will probably drop short-term, but at least now they are now longer a puppet of the Brussels mafia and can create their own future. This is also just the beginning; more countries will follow Britain's example.

 

The EU is supposed to be like a twin to the USA, but in reality it's not. It's not a federal state, although there have been talks about that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the US you treat every "state" differently as they all have their own laws and regulations while in the EU the same thing basically apply to all members. As the EU does not at all take national differences into consideration, it is obvious that the union will not survive for long. We do not share the same ethnicity, profession, religion, language, population density, topography, economy, military etc. The only thing we have in common is that we all live on the same continent, and that seems to be all that matters to politicians.

 

One of America's closest friends and allies has chosen to weaken its military, to make itself less relevant, and weaken its own economy.  That is a shame. 

 

The EU is an economic union, not a military one, so I guess you are thinking about the NATO. As far as I know, Britain is still part of NATO, so there are no changes there.

 

I think the EU needs a lot of fixing (not that the US doesn't, but that's a different topic), so I can understand why people would want to leave. That said, I feel like they should have tried to make changes in the EU instead of just abandoning it entirely. At least give it a try, I don't think people would be nearly as divisive on the issue if it was clear that the UK had tried for years to fix the EU's problems and failed.

 

And there is the problem; you try to change things, but it fails because it concerns all members and the majority is against the change. So again, treat every country as a country and not as part of a greater political entity. The politicians' illusions should be no more than just that - illusions. If Britain has trouble making changes in the EU, then you can imagine how hard it is for a country of Finland's size to make its voice heard. When Finland joined the EU in 1995 there were 100,000 farms in the country, but 2015 they were down to 50,000. Joining the EU was a catastrophe for the farmers - a catastrophe that still exists today. Noone wants to carry on a desctructive path forever, and understandably the Brits decided that they've had enough.

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The fact that they didn't try to before leaving is foolish.

Except we did... and received the diplomatic equivalent of two fingers stuck in the air.

 

Interestingly the EU's response to the possibility of Brexit was to threaten us if we left.

 

The two ways guaranteed to make the British act against you is to be rude and to threaten. If I were truely paranoid i'd wonder if the EU wanted rid of us...

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And now my rant.

 

For context I am British and voted Remain. So yes, I am disappointed with the result. But...

 

It strikes me that we all seem to have forgotten how democracy works. We have a question, everyone gets a vote, then we use the answer that the majority pick. Your preferred side lost? Deal with it. I'm particularly looking at all those people who spouted much about togetherness and loving their country but now want to leave it, or even break it up.

Ms Sturgeon is a good (or horrendous depending on your viewpoint) example of this.

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I don't believe the UK should stop people from immigrating to there, I just believe a sovereign nation should not be forced to accept foreigners (to live) if they do not want to.

 

House....if the UN told us who we must allow to live in the U.S., would you be OK with that? I don't think too many Americans would and I don't think many would feel the need to compromise anything to the UN.

The UN is a different entity than the EU.  One of the cornerstone policies of the EU was the freedom of movement of capital and people, the UK knew that when they wanted into the EU.  Regardless from some viewpoints that I've heard from, people think the EU is some over arching evil entity that the UK was slave of.  The UK is the second largest economy in the EU, they had the power and influence to attempt to change the policy from within.  The fact that they didn't try to before leaving is foolish.  The primary concern from what I've seen, was the refugees and immigrants from the middle east coming to the UK not other legitimate Europeans.  Legitimate European citizens who came and worked in the UK helped the UK (paying taxes etc).  

 

You say this like the UK joined the EU recently, when it reality it's been there from the start. The UK was a member of two of the major predecessors of the EU, the Western European Union (formed 1948), as well as the European Economic Community (formed 1957, UK joined 1973), the EU itself was formed in 1993 mostly from members of these organizations, including the UK. I'm not saying it's the best idea for the UK to leave, but the EU is much different from what it started as, as well as what it's predecessors were.

 

The point I was trying to get across was that the policies of the EU were not forced upon the UK, the UK was part of EU from the beginning and had a say in the policies that were created and could have possibly been in favor of them at the time.

 

 

 

Thanks for the insightful post Haart! :)

 

 

 

One of America's closest friends and allies has chosen to weaken its military, to make itself less relevant, and weaken its own economy.  That is a shame. 

The EU is an economic union, not a military one, so I guess you are thinking about the NATO. As far as I know, Britain is still part of NATO, so there are no changes there'

Yes the EU is an economic union.  But there is likely economic fallout for the UK for leaving the EU, which can lead to a recession.  Countries in recessions are most likely faced with decreased revenue which lead to budget cuts, and the most popular solution for European countries faced with budget cuts is cutting their militaries.  That said, I regret putting so much emphasis, or putting maybe any emphasis at all on the military in that line I said, that said I still stand by the  larger point I made in the sentence. 

 

 

 

The fact that they didn't try to before leaving is foolish.

Except we did... and received the diplomatic equivalent of two fingers stuck in the air.

 

Interestingly the EU's response to the possibility of Brexit was to threaten us if we left.

 

The two ways guaranteed to make the British act against you is to be rude and to threaten. If I were truely paranoid i'd wonder if the EU wanted rid of us...

 

Can I get some sources that show this? Thanks.

 

If that is the case it doesn't change my view except for that the UK tried to change policy in the EU and afterwards leaving was reasonable to talk about because they tried all other options. 

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House...it doesn't matter if it's the UN, EU or any entity- the question remains the same...Should a sovereign nation be forced by any group to accept foreigners (to live) there? Personally, I say no. It doesn't matter if at one time they were OK with it- things change (as we have seen). 

Again, I'm not saying leaving the EU was a good idea, I'm just saying that one issue should not be swept under rug as if it doesn't mean anything.

Excellent post Haart. It was very insightful.

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This is why super majorities exist!

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I won't pretend to know more than those who actually live there and are more informed, but after reading this article, I was very surprised just how much actual power the EU had over the UK. With 15-50% of the UK's legislation coming from the EU and the fact that it could only be overruled or overturned by the EU I can see why some citizens could have a problem with it. The following is an excerpt from the article:
 

"The more the EU does, the less room there is for national decision-making. Sometimes these EU rules sound simply ludicrous, like the rule that you can’t recycle a teabag, or that children under eight cannot blow up balloons, or the limits on the power of vacuum cleaners. Sometimes they can be truly infuriating – like the time I discovered, in 2013, that there was nothing we could do to bring in better-designed cab windows for trucks, to stop cyclists being crushed. It had to be done at a European level, and the French were opposed."

"Sometimes the public can see all too plainly the impotence of their own elected politicians- as with immigration. That enrages them; not so much the numbers as the lack of control. That is what we mean by loss of sovereignty – the inability of people to kick out, at elections, the men and women who control their lives. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03/16/boris-johnson-exclusive-there-is-only-one-way-to-get-the-change/

 

As a U.S. citizen I'm a firm believer in our Tenth Amendment (states rights) and I prefer less federal involvement (unless it's national security) so I can't even imagine having to answer so often to a separate entity that at times supersedes our own nations laws and will. I understand that as an American, I have a different perspective. Like I said, this will no doubt have negative economic effects at least in the short-term for the UK.

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Can I get some sources that show this? Thanks.

 

 

It was initially a major feature of Cameron's campaign that he would negotiate a better system for the EU. After that failed he quietly dropped it

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The EU is supposed to be like a twin to the USA, but in reality it's not. It's not a federal state, although there have been talks about that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the US you treat every "state" differently as they all have their own laws and regulations while in the EU the same thing basically apply to all members.

I guess I forget sometimes that not everyone here would know how the US works so I'll give you a brief rundown (and anyone else who cares). In principle this is how it's setup. From larger to smaller government entities it goes like this:

 

Federal (the whole country)

State (ex. Pennsylvania, the state I live in)

County (sometimes not called a county depending on the state, but the idea is the same.)

Local (in the case of large cities, sometimes the city and county government are the same, an example of this is Philadelphia).

 

In terms of laws, in principle, the laws of the government above override the laws of the governments below. So as an example, a county law cannot make something legal which is illegal at the state or federal level. In practice, it entirely comes down to how willing the larger entity is to enforce it's laws on the smaller entity. In Colorado, they've legalized pot, but it's still illegal on the federal level. The federal government seems uninterested in actually enforcing that law in Colorado though so they are allowed to continue.

 

This situation usually leads to the larger entities not passing laws that get into too small of details because it would simply be untenable. Like as an example, local governments pass laws about things like street parking or construction permits to build a shed on your property. Stuff that even the county government wouldn't really want to get involved in because it's very specific to each community.

 

Some examples of the kind of appropriate lawmaking that happens at each level is like this:

 

Federal: laws on import/export of the country, laws relating to the military, laws dealing with issues that cross state boundaries

State: laws that deal with operating a car, laws that deal with land ownership, laws that deal with highways

County: laws that deal with parks, laws that deal with waste management, laws that deal with public transport

Local: laws that deal with schools, laws that deal with fire services, laws that deal with people's pets

 

 

I know there's a ton more details on how things work and I'm sure one of the lawyer types around could go into details but I think this is a pretty good summary.

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A very good summary, CM.

 

I won't pretend to know more than those who actually live there and are more informed, but after reading this article, I was very surprised just how much actual power the EU had over the UK. With 15-50% of the UK's legislation coming from the EU and the fact that it could only be overruled or overturned by the EU I can see why some citizens could have a problem with it. The following is an excerpt from the article:
 

"The more the EU does, the less room there is for national decision-making. Sometimes these EU rules sound simply ludicrous, like the rule that you can’t recycle a teabag, or that children under eight cannot blow up balloons, or the limits on the power of vacuum cleaners. Sometimes they can be truly infuriating – like the time I discovered, in 2013, that there was nothing we could do to bring in better-designed cab windows for trucks, to stop cyclists being crushed. It had to be done at a European level, and the French were opposed."

"Sometimes the public can see all too plainly the impotence of their own elected politicians- as with immigration. That enrages them; not so much the numbers as the lack of control. That is what we mean by loss of sovereignty – the inability of people to kick out, at elections, the men and women who control their lives. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03/16/boris-johnson-exclusive-there-is-only-one-way-to-get-the-change/

 

As a U.S. citizen I'm a firm believer in our Tenth Amendment (states rights) and I prefer less federal involvement (unless it's national security) so I can't even imagine having to answer so often to a separate entity that at times supersedes our own nations laws and will. I understand that as an American, I have a different perspective. Like I said, this will no doubt have negative economic effects at least in the short-term for the UK.

 

Those are good examples of what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter whether you think in the consumer sense or professionally, there are several ridiculous laws and regulations which in some way hinder you from doing what would be completely normal and acceptable anywhere else in the world. Banning the selling of straight bananas and curved cucumbers in the shops makes no sense either - another of the "great" ideas from the EU (luckily you can buy them from market places though). The decisions from Brussels are naturally enforced by the national authorities, and that has resulted in more bureaucracy. As an example, Finland is today the most bureaucratic country in the EU when it comes to dealing with agricultural matters.

 

Whatever everyone think about the EU, it's still a spoilt child who thinks everything has to revolve around his thoughts. In order to be a grown-up, he still needs to realize that there are boundaries and rules that he can't or shouldn't try to change on his own.

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Very good posts CM and Haart. Like I said, I come from a different perspective, so I cannot truly make a qualified opinion from the perspective of someone in the UK. But as an American in a republic, I cannot fathom having a foreign body (who we cannot vote out) legislate what we do (especially in our personal lives) and it supersede our own will as well as those who we elect to lead us.

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I won't pretend to know more than those who actually live there and are more informed, but after reading this article, I was very surprised just how much actual power the EU had over the UK. With 15-50% of the UK's legislation coming from the EU and the fact that it could only be overruled or overturned by the EU I can see why some citizens could have a problem with it. The following is an excerpt from the article:

 

"The more the EU does, the less room there is for national decision-making. Sometimes these EU rules sound simply ludicrous, like the rule that you can’t recycle a teabag, or that children under eight cannot blow up balloons, or the limits on the power of vacuum cleaners. Sometimes they can be truly infuriating – like the time I discovered, in 2013, that there was nothing we could do to bring in better-designed cab windows for trucks, to stop cyclists being crushed. It had to be done at a European level, and the French were opposed."

 

"Sometimes the public can see all too plainly the impotence of their own elected politicians- as with immigration. That enrages them; not so much the numbers as the lack of control. That is what we mean by loss of sovereignty – the inability of people to kick out, at elections, the men and women who control their lives. "

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/03/16/boris-johnson-exclusive-there-is-only-one-way-to-get-the-change/

 

As a U.S. citizen I'm a firm believer in our Tenth Amendment (states rights) and I prefer less federal involvement (unless it's national security) so I can't even imagine having to answer so often to a separate entity that at times supersedes our own nations laws and will. I understand that as an American, I have a different perspective. Like I said, this will no doubt have negative economic effects at least in the short-term for the UK.

That article is an opinion piece.    

 

 But as an American in a republic, I cannot fathom having a foreign body (who we cannot vote out) legislate what we do (especially in our personal lives) and it supersede our own will as well as those who we elect to lead us.

I'm not saying the EU is a great thing, it has good aspects and bad aspects, but from all your posts, you're just making it out as some undemocratic organization with total control over the UK.  EU will doesn't supersede the UK, according to the UK constitution parliament is the supreme legal authority in the UK.  Yes you can vote out the EU, people just did in the UK.  Also pretty sure people get to vote on who represents them in the European Parliament.  The fact that voting participation in those elections have been going down is people's fault. 

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