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Gun Control: Do more guns = more crime?


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#1 FreddieMercury

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 03:40 PM - 028071

I've always been sitting on the fence about this one, not investigating the issue more than just listening to the rhetoric on the media, which is always boiled down to the most retarded version imaginable.

The conservatives on the matter usually spew something along the lines "Dey tryin' to tek ouhr gunz!!!" (well in Tennessee anyway) or the well worn talking point that allowing the average civilian to own weapons is for the purposes of leveling the playing field between themselves and criminals (forgetting the obvious paradox is that you're making it easier for criminals to get guns). Liberals are like the opposite.



I was bored at work today and I found this:

http://www.law.harva...auseronline.pdf

It's Harvard's journal for public policy; I read it and was like "Holy sugar", the argument it makes is just so logically sound, citing rock solid statistical data, it just basically blows gun control advocates out of the water.

After reading it there is just no doubt in my mind that a high availability of guns do not increase the overall amount of crime (though they probably don't decrease it); I am just confused on why pro-gun activists don't cite this more. It's Harvard for fucks sake.

The paper is very readable, though a tad on the long side, but well worth your time.
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#2 C2Talon

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 05:21 PM - 028072

I suppose this is where I go "lolFinland," because I'm sure it mentions that they have one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, followed by one of the lower crime rates in the world.

Seems like I can't get to that site right now, or it's down, so I'll try to give the paper a look later.
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#3 Baldr

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:55 PM - 028073

The US has tried their best to get rid of drugs, and drugs are incredibly common.

The US tried to outlaw alcohol, and failed miserably.

Outlawing guns, though, is expected to get rid of all firearms? Seems very unlikely.

A basic gun is very simple technology. Anyone with a basic machine shop can make a simple gun. In addition, we have no control over our borders, as evidenced by the constant flow of drugs and illegal aliens. Outlawing guns simply isn't going to get rid of them.

So, since it won't actually get rid of all the guns, the logical result is that criminals are still going to get guns. Only the law abiding are going to end up without them. I don't like the results that would bring.

I also don't buy the "OMG OWNING GUNS IS SO DANGEROUS!" line.

I've lived in Texas all my life. Now, living in a city, I know quite a few people who don't have guns, and quite a few who do. I grew up in a small town, and essentially everyone had them. My dad had guns, and I was given a .22 rifle when I was 12 or so, and a shotgun when I was a few years older. The .22 was used for fun - target practice, that sort of thing. The shotgun was for dove/quail hunting, and I still have it. Hunting was common - most families I knew had at least one or two people who went hunting fairly often.

If owning guns was as dangerous as the gun haters claim, then I'd know a lot of cases of people shooting their family member, either on purpose or on accident. But in actual fact, I've never known anyone where that happened.

There are, of course, cases where a family member goes nuts and decides to kill another one - but they could do that with a knife, by running over them with a car, etc.

The vast majority of gun crime in this country is done to, and by, gang thugs. Idiots who think it's cool to live a short life where shooting everyone you disagree with is normal. Those people shoot each other all the time, and honestly, we'd be better off if they'd kill each other off faster.

I've been robbed at gunpoint, when four black gang-thug types came into a bar and took wallets and purses. They didn't, for some reason, take the money in the cash register.

They got away with that because nobody else is allowed to have a gun in the bar. If the rules were different, and anyone with a CCP could have a gun in a bar, I suspect they wouldn't have even tried, and that if they had tried, they'd have been shot dead. And the world would be a better place for it.

From me, they got about $30, but it cost me a lot more than that, since I had to get a replacement for my drivers license, my SSN card, my credit cards/debit cards, a new wallet, etc etc.

By the way, if you get robbed and have no ID, it's a bitch to get a new one from the state. They have my picture (it's on the DL.) They have my thumbprints, since you have to give those when you get a DL. They have a police report that me and another 30 or so people were robbed. But since you have no ID to show them, they won't work with you. I had to get a copy of several "alternate ID's" to show them. My birth certificate, a copy of my HS graduation papers, a copy of my marriage license, etc. Every one of those I could get without showing any ID, most of them over the phone. Which means anyone could do it.

But the picture of me on my DL and my thumbprints weren't worth a damn. That's the government for you. They want that info so they can use it against you, but they sure won't use it to help you when you get robbed.

I keep telling myself I should get a passport and stash it, just to have a backup ID in case I need to prove I'm me again. Haven't done it, though.

I have also used a gun to defend myself. I'm not sure what his plan was, but many years ago, I was on my way home and some guy started following me, riding right on my bumper. I turned off the main road, he stayed with me. I made a couple of other turns, he stayed right behind me. I lived a bit out in the country, and wasn't about to drive straight home with this idiot following me, so I drove well out into the country, and he kept following me. At the time, I regularly made a bank deposit for the place I was working, and I had a gun I carried when I did it. And I had the gun with me.

Eventually, I pulled over on the side of the road, he pulled over behind me, he got out of his car and started towards me, I came out of the car with the gun pointed at his mid-section and told him he had one chance to get in his car and leave me the fuck alone, else his body was going to be found lying in the road with six holes in it. We were out in the country by then, nobody else around, not a house in sight. Apparently he didn't care to get shot, because he left and I never saw him again.

Note that I didn't have to shoot, and I never reported anything. It wouldn't show up on any kind of crime stats or gun safety reports or anything. I suspect there are a lot of cases where a gun is used for defense without any shots being fired or any reports being made.

Clearly, I'm in favor of reasonable gun ownership.

I'm also in favor of very harsh laws for anyone who uses a gun to rob someone, to shoot someone for no reason, etc. Quit locking up people for possession of pot, and keep the real criminals in jail forever and everyone will be better off except the criminals.
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#4 musky

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 06:26 PM - 028074

I think that one of the most telling points in the question is that most of the folks on the anti side will lie to you, like the editor in chief of the JAMA who, when caught, said "yes i lied and falsified statistics but it's for a good cause so it's OK!"] and folks a on the pro side won't. I understand that's a generalization so don't attack me on that basis as i won't respond to such foolishness.

i have a long career behind me in federal [US Army] and state/local law enforcement in uniform and as an investigator/detective and have pretty extensive experience on this subject and don't base my opinions on academic fantasies but real world experience!
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#5 Dark Wizard

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 08:00 PM - 028075

To rid of firearms all together is wrong and stupid. But stricter regulations and rules should be made and violaters should be come down on harder.
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#6 musky

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 09:45 PM - 028076

Laws and regulations only penalize the law abiding, criminals pay no attention to laws by definition!

the bad guys do what they want whenever and wherever they choose and the good guys should be free of foolish laws made by dried up old men!

the only laws dealing with weapons that we should have on the books are those that make the use of ANY weapon in the commission of a crime a mandatory 20 year sentence, over and above the sentence for your base crime! None of the rest of this crap matters at all!
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#7 FreddieMercury

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:31 PM - 028077

It's wrong to assume that it is impossible to achieve strict gun control, look at Japan for example. Gun crimes are basically unheard of there, even most of the police don't carry firearms.

I definitely don't think that's practical for the US, I mean just compare how big we are to Japan, but an effective (emphasis on effective, not half assed) gun control policy is a viable path to take.
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#8 musky

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:57 PM - 028078

no it isn't ! which other rights are you willing to restrict? and who are you willing to allow to make the decision?

gun owners aren't willing to be saddled with more meaningless crap so that the effete urban elitists and victim culture sob sisters can "feel safe"!

people need to rid themselves of the fantasy of gun control as crime control [total fantasy!] and concentrate on the criminals and stop pushing foolish prohibition, which is for children and just doesn't work in any case.
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#9 Baldr

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 06:05 AM - 028079

I definitely don't think that's practical for the US, I mean just compare how big we are to Japan, but an effective (emphasis on effective, not half assed) gun control policy is a viable path to take.


Bull. You couldn't get *me* to give up owning guns. What chance do you have with criminals?

Japan is successful primarily due to a different culture. They are also much harsher on criminals than we are here, which is something most of us agree should happen.
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#10 Defender of Liberty

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 10:49 AM - 0280710

I may be a liberal from California, but I'm not a hypocrite when it comes to individual liberty, which I cherish. I think the only dangerous thing about guns is that more citizens aren't educated about proper gun safety and use. I think most people in my community are non-violent and law abiding. What a safer world it would be if they were all armed with guns and more importantly, armed with the knowledge and skill of when and how to properly use them.
Who would dare menace such a neighborhood?

Thankfully, gun ownership by private citizens in our Republic is guaranteed by the 2nd amendment.
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#11 Fox

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 01:46 PM - 0280711

I think that they should at least create a system where you have to join a gun club, which will educate you for proper use of it, and that you need to shoot at their range [x] times per year. Something like that "should" ensure that everyone knows how to handle a gun safely.
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#12 musky

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 05:31 PM - 0280712

can't agree with that one, you shouldn't be able to license a right! the public schools should be doing this as part of your education. teach all the basic skills an adult human needs. basic accounting, self defense, objective history, basic civics without any political bias, not the liberal bullshit you see coming out of the schools today! driver ed, language [both competent English and foreign] mathematics, this isn't an inclusive list, but you get the idea.

we should be producing well rounded complete adults and not illiterate little fools who are afraid of everything and dependent on uncle sugar, unable to truly fend for themselves. Colleges shouldn't have to maintain programs to teach middle and high school subjects because the system has become so worthless!
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#13 Gradius

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:03 PM - 0280713

I like musky. I feel that we should losen the crap people have to go through with owning a gun. If guns kill people the pens make spelling errors
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#14 FreddieMercury

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:12 PM - 0280714

Well, they got the Samurai of Japan to give up their swords in the 1900's, and those people could probably kick your ass :P


They didn't outlaw swords, they outlawed wearing them. Swords are still common in Japan.

And the fall of the Samurai from their previous prominence is tied fairly directly to firearms. No matter how skilled you are with a sword, a guy with a gun still has the advantage.
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#15 musky

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:26 PM - 0280715

actually Russia and Japan don't have effective gun control, criminals in both countries have all the firearms they want!

Japan actually has knife and baseball bat control. this works out so well that the baseball bat is the preferred weapon of gang assassinations!

Japan and Russia both have long traditions of lying about their national crime statistics as well.

Don't make any assumptions about my intellectual outlook, i am neither anti-intellectual nor misguided! BTW we are allowed to own tanks! many do.
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#16 Lailander

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:40 PM - 0280716

If guns kill people the pens make spelling errors


This here. Guns don't kill people, other people do. And that's why humans are the real danger. Never forget that.


A lot of people here have said that owning a gun somehow makes living or whatever safer. While reading these I was just wondering....if a well-armed group of bank robbers decided to rob a bank...if the customers had weapons and opened fire in the bank robbers...I'm quite sure that it would just incite them to kill everyone. So, in this case having a gun might actually get you killed.

*EDIT* If musky's last post is correct....what the hell would you do with a bloody tank?!
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#17 musky

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:51 PM - 0280717

Mostly spend money maintaining it.

these things have happened, in recent years the trend of criminals robbing, and then killing people to prevent witness testimony has become more commonplace. an elderly man [retired USMC 1 pilot] defended himself when armed robbers herded the victims into the establishments bathroom to kill them. the gentleman then drew his 1911A1 and killed one assailant and then wounded the other. thus saving the lives of all the victims.

It all boils down to; would you prefer to die on you belly on the floor of the restaurant like a dog, or fighting for your life like a man? I would much prefer to be accidentally shot by a good guy trying to fight back than killed by some scumbag standing on my neck!

Keep this in mind, when i say this i am a veteran soldier and cop and actually have been shot, as well as cut and otherwise injured by real bad guys! so I'm not some internet kiddie who is talking out of his ass!

no offense to any kiddies who might be conversing from said orifice.
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#18 AngolaThree

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 02:31 AM - 0280718

There may not be a solid correlation between gun ownership and crime, but having a lot of guns certainly hasn't helped the United States' firearms homicide rate. That's about as much as I can glean from decades of debate on the subject.
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#19 Baldr

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 04:15 AM - 0280719

There may not be a solid correlation between gun ownership and crime, but having a lot of guns certainly hasn't helped the United States' firearms homicide rate.


Russia, which has gun control, still has much higher homicide rates than the US.

I'm sure our "firearms homicide rate" is higher, but to me, that just shows that getting rid of guns doesn't make you safer.

Having a lower rate of firearms homicides, in trade for more homicides overall, doesn't seem like a good trade.
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#20 AngolaThree

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 05:34 AM - 0280720

Russia, which has gun control, still has much higher homicide rates than the US.

I'm sure our "firearms homicide rate" is higher, but to me, that just shows that getting rid of guns doesn't make you safer.

Having a lower rate of firearms homicides, in trade for more homicides overall, doesn't seem like a good trade.


But is Russia really a comparable country to the United States in many respects? They're a crumbling post-superpower with serious corruption and law and order issues. Nigeria may have more gun homicides than the US, but they're not a comparable country.
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