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Michael Martin

Is There a God?

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What is God?

If he exists, what does it matter.

If God exists and he is only omniscient, then I care not about what pleases him or not, because he is not omnipotent.

If he is omnipotent and not omniscient, then I can get away with stuff :P.

If he is both omnipotent and omniscient, then I should sign a petition with the world's signatures on it and ask, if you know all, and can do all, then why do you let such horrible things happen?

Is God the one who created the universe(or multi-verses(string theory))?

Is God the one who is in control of the earth?

Is God the one who knows everything?

How many Gods are there?

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After learning more about the universe, it makes me wonder if there really is a god. I can't imagine there not being one. I can't imagine that some massive explosion billions of years ago created the orderly chaos that is our universe without any guidance. Maybe I'm underestimating physics. Maybe not.

 

When I try to wrap my head around the size of the universe, I'm incapable of grasping the size. The human mind just doesn't operate like that. Maybe we are just cosmic accidents. Maybe we're not even all that special in the universal scheme of things. With the size of the universe, there HAS to be intelligent life on other planets. Statistically, there is just no way we're the only ones with the right mix of atmosphere, distance from the sun, and chemicals, which all converged to create life as we know it, in the hundreds of billions of planets that make up the Milky Way galaxy. Keep in mind that there are millions (if not billions) of other galaxies as well, and scientists believe the universe is still expanding. That kind of gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. There's just no way this all happened by accident.

 

I agree. It's simply impossible for there not to be a God. Honestly, as a balancing agnostic/intelligent design proponent, it's impossible to stand by the position that the universe is by chance.

 

As for size, just check this out. It's a somewhat unrefined, but very... revealing picture of just how unimaginably big - and small - our world is.

 

I believe in science. But science cannot logically explain many things in our universe, such as where anything began. The Big Bang? Okay, then where'd THAT come from? Where did the material that caused the Big Bang come from? And on, and on...

 

But honestly, neither God or chance makes any sense at all - the universe is a God (lol) damn paradox. For it to exist, there had to be a start. But if there was nothing, there was nothing to begin the something. I've spent hours pondering this, and I don't know if I'm explaining my thought process properly here.

 

On the other hand of this paradox, the part that makes it a paradox, is that nothing is... impossible? How can there be nothing without something? And why IS there something if there was, at one point, nothing? We have an endless circle. On one hand, the universe can't exist, but on the other hand, it has to. I think I may be dividing by zero here.

 

Oh, and we had to come from somewhere. Our scientific attempts at explaining our own origins on our little oasis in the Milky Way galaxy are pure fantasy and honestly pathetic. Spontaneous creation of life from floating chemicals and proteins - I thought spontaneous generation was debunked in the 18th century! You know, the Classical Greek-era theory that life just "appeared," such as maggots from rotten meat or bacteria in broth? The theory debunked by Louis Pasteur? And evolution is likewise flawed, there are too many errors, too many inconsistencies left unexplained to this day, too much blatant disregard for basic genetics (DNA can't change, and mutations remove sequences, they don't make new ones).

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Is there a reason to explain everything? Do we need to know why are we here? Do we need to know how did all this began? Do we need to know what's beyond our galaxy?

 

I think it's just Egocentrism.

 

 

 

*more space reserved for later use*

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Is there a reason to explain everything? Do we need to know why are we here? Do we need to know how did all this began? Do we need to know what's beyond our galaxy?

 

I think it's just Egocentrism.

 

 

 

*more space reserved for later use*

 

So you're saying we SHOULDN'T try and find out why we are? Why we exist and what we should strive for in our infinitesimally small lifetimes? That sounds ignorant from any perspective - the same could be said of anything. Why build anything on our world? Why strive for knowledge? Why bother with anything?

 

Is there a reason? Yes. The reason is because humanity IS discovery, knowledge, creation. God or no God, that is our base desire - to learn, to live, to do something in our lives. For some, this embodies itself in sensualism, for others, it is through creativity. To deny our role as humans, to deny our base desires, is simply a denial that we have any purpose, any significance at all - in which case we'd be doing the world a favor by going extinct.

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Firstly, I was an atheist then i realized i AM god.

 

but jokes aside...

 

 

 

 

in a nutshell, the universe has too much matter and energy to be concentrated in a singularity, the big bang is the result of all matter in the universe being in a singularity for probably millionths of a microsecond, as it is too unstable to be sustained for any period of time past that. so the big bang is a relatively short event that is brought on by the universe collapsing on itself.

 

you may ask,'but the universe is slowly expanding' laws of physics 101, will a gas not diffuse to where it is least dense iin order to 'pan out?'

 

yes, the universe may exibit this behavior, its simple physics, but in order for there to be a big bang, there needs to be a bigt collapse, if its expanding how does this happen?

 

black holes, at the center of each galaxy, there exists a super massive black hole with the strength to keep trillions of stars and planets in its gravity well for billions of years, and we already know that any regular star can supernova and create a new black hole, but what would happen when the universe is aged enough, and more and mroe black holes form and current ones grow?

 

the universe, essentially would begin to draw itself back in, physics dictate so, as does logic. thus the universe, in my oppinion, collapses back into singularity, and poof, another big bang.

 

^my theory on the subject

 

as far as a GOD goes, well it could be that everything is his plan, it could be he created everything and were jsut chance and need to make the best of it ourselves...

 

but anyone who says god will guide me and does nothing is a fool, should look upon it as if god empowered you to do what he would through your own actions.

 

 

yup, thats right, universe repeats itself over and over, jsut like the cylons and the reapers in mass effect.

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Firstly, I was an atheist then i realized i AM god.

 

but jokes aside...

 

 

 

 

in a nutshell, the universe has too much matter and energy to be concentrated in a singularity, the big bang is the result of all matter in the universe being in a singularity for probably millionths of a microsecond, as it is too unstable to be sustained for any period of time past that. so the big bang is a relatively short event that is brought on by the universe collapsing on itself.

 

you may ask,'but the universe is slowly expanding' laws of physics 101, will a gas not diffuse to where it is least dense iin order to 'pan out?'

 

yes, the universe may exibit this behavior, its simple physics, but in order for there to be a big bang, there needs to be a bigt collapse, if its expanding how does this happen?

 

black holes, at the center of each galaxy, there exists a super massive black hole with the strength to keep trillions of stars and planets in its gravity well for billions of years, and we already know that any regular star can supernova and create a new black hole, but what would happen when the universe is aged enough, and more and mroe black holes form and current ones grow?

 

the universe, essentially would begin to draw itself back in, physics dictate so, as does logic. thus the universe, in my oppinion, collapses back into singularity, and poof, another big bang.

 

^my theory on the subject

 

as far as a GOD goes, well it could be that everything is his plan, it could be he created everything and were jsut chance and need to make the best of it ourselves...

 

but anyone who says god will guide me and does nothing is a fool, should look upon it as if god empowered you to do what he would through your own actions.

 

 

yup, thats right, universe repeats itself over and over, jsut like the cylons and the reapers in mass effect.

 

You miss my point. I understand that the universe may repeat it self by the theory of the big bang, but that process had to start at some point. How? When? What caused it, and where did the materials come from?

 

There is no logical start to anything, which is the problem.

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I went from the religion I was raised with to atheism and was an atheist for many years, until around four years ago when I became a theist due to certain personal events and experiences in my life. So where I'm at is, I believe there's a being who runs everything but I don't subscribe to any religious code. There's an interesting book called The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James which was one of the first attempts to look at spirituality from a psychological viewpoint.

 

However, I think the question of God's existence is not a subject that can be successfully debated because those who oppose the idea ask "show me some evidence" and those who support the idea either appeal to personal experience or cite passages from ancient literature. Nobody ever gets anywhere and everyone just gets annoyed.

 

.

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"If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever." -Woody Allen

 

I see God as the efforts of people to assign meaning and order to nature. If there is a God, I think that he is essentially what I would just call nature. He just creatured the universe with all of its rules and is watching it change, marveling at what happens (e.g. Langton's Ant). I personally don't think that this is the case, but is the scenario that I give a greater than negligible of being correct to. I have many reasons for being aetheist, but a little logic games that I find intruiging (if not exactly a winning argument) is the "evolution" of religion. First(ish), polytheism was dominant, now, it is monotheism, next step it will be aetheism. The number of Gods is getting reduced. You and me, were're both aetheist. The only difference is that I believe in one less God than you. When you understand why you disbelieve in all others, you'll understand why I disbelieve in yours. It seems to me that God fills in and even replaces science for a lot of people. I know that this is far (very far) from true for everyone, but I think it is a big part of why Gods were created in the first place, to explain the unexplained. As science expands, Gods gets pushed back. Just because something currently isn't explained (not just my science), doesn't mean it won't be.

 

I have now lost my train of thought and really need sleep. So I will end it here with a link to a very interesting article (I have yet to read the whole thing, but the beginning is VERY interesting) and a very funny article.

 

seriouse and thought provoking: http://atheistempire.com/reference/brain/index.php

 

funny: http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm

 

just remembered some more stuff about myself. I am an aetheist in the sense that I believe that there is less than a 50% of the existence of any God (in my case, significantly less). VERY few aetheists are close-minded enough to outright say that there is no chance of the existence of God. EVERYTHING is at the very least possible (e.g. the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Reformed Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster). I marvel at the miracles of science and feel no need to asign a higher power to it. I think that all of what I think and feel is a direct result of the sloshing of fluids inside of me (glands and that sort of thing). And don't get me started on intelligent design.

 

*I like the point that the above pose makes. We are all just talking in circles. The kind of people who argue these things are very unlikely to change their minds (myself included, I used to think I was open-minded but then I tried to think about what could be done to convince me of the existence of God and realized that there was nothing (which I'm sure is the case for many of you but in reverse)). I merely contribute to explain a little about myself.

And big kudos to Tankkiller for mentioning Terry Pratchett.

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You miss my point. I understand that the universe may repeat it self by the theory of the big bang, but that process had to start at some point. How? When? What caused it, and where did the materials come from?

 

There is no logical start to anything, which is the problem.

 

 

i wasnt responding to you, i was responding to the beginning of this entire thread.

 

BUT...

it seems like there is no logical start, ill save you some time, thats because there isnt, energy and mass are the same thing just in a different form, its reasonable to say the universe simply IS and has been, and will be. it just runs in cycles. our realm of existence historically is a few thousand years, what science can explain with certainty, a few hundred million, the rest is essentially educated guesswork based on some things we actually do know

 

as for material creation, that is an easy explanation due to the big bang, and even without the big bang. take our solar system for example, formed over billions of years from nothing but enormous gaseous clouds of various materials, some of them simple materials like hydrogen being a very common one. with the formation of a star obviously you have very simple things like hydrogen coming together in fusion to create it, as for planets, resources like plutonium are capable of being formed simply by the planets gravity and internal pressure.

 

basically what im saying is that, materials and the like cannot be MADE as you want to suggest, but rather, through the universal cycle, energy and mass are always present, hydrogen clouds to a lump of plutonium, to a singularity, just in different forms and different wavelengths of energy.

 

logical reasoning of mass and matter

 

the how and why of the universe and creation is jsut an easier question and answer to identify and believe due to our short existence, including the 'how it started', the idea of everything in the universe running in cycles makes more sense logically.

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Seeing as he is omnipotent, omniscient, etc.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Thats all im am going to say [/i]

The Judeo-Christian god is considered to be the 3 Omnis - omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent (all knowing, all powerful, all loving). However, this is a contradiction, as Augustus has pointed out. God may only possess 2 of the 3 omnis without there being a contradiction.

 

Evil - The fact that evil exists proves that god is either not omnipotent or not omni-benevolent. Or, we just mis-interpret events as being evil, when in fact they are not. However, the Christians have faith that there is evil, so it must exist.

 

Dualism - The believe that good and evil exist together, often in balance but never able to destroy one or the other. So if evil exits, and it purposefully exists, then either god allows it, or he cannot prevent it. If he's unable to prevent it, then he is not omnipotent, or he is not the only god.

 

 

It's simply impossible for there not to be a God.

Funny, I believe that it is simply not possible for there to be a god. But the fact that we can verbalize our statements does not make them any more correct or incorrect. Clearly, one of us is correct, it's logically necessary. It can never be proved which one of is correct, though.

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Lailander, I would like to thank you for you're excellent ability to word your thoughts. You basically made my main point that I don't think I managed to transmit clearly: egoncentrism. Why do some of us think we are superior/perfect/have a world made for us (etc)?

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So you're saying we SHOULDN'T try and find out why we are? Why we exist and what we should strive for in our infinitesimally small lifetimes? That sounds ignorant from any perspective - the same could be said of anything. Why build anything on our world? Why strive for knowledge? Why bother with anything?

And after we find out whatever that might be, what then? How would that knowledge change our lives? Let's say that we are here to travel across the galaxies. Would we stop whatever we'd be doing and start to produce spacecraft like in Star Trek? And if someone didn't want to do so, what of them? What if there is no reason?

We don't need an external reason to exist. We create our own world, our own reasons. I myself, I want to bring a little bit of love and happiness to the world. And that's because I decided so. I didn't need anyone to tell me how I should live my life or what to do with it. And if it happens that someone finds out the reason behind our existence, it won't change what I am.

 

When we are born, our lives have no reason. But when you grow up and live, you will create your own reasons.

 

 

Funny, I believe that it is simply not possible for there to be a god. But the fact that we can verbalize our statements does not make them any more correct or incorrect. Clearly, one of us is correct, it's logically necessary. It can never be proved which one of is correct, though.

 

Not quite. You can be both partially right or partially wrong. I myself do not deny the existence of god, or something beyond our understanding and capabilities, but I do not believe that there is a God that the organized religions are so fixated upon.

 

 

Lailander, I would like to thank you for you're excellent ability to word your thoughts. You basically made my main point that I don't think I managed to transmit clearly: egoncentrism. Why do some of us think we are superior/perfect/have a world made for us (etc)?

 

That might have something to do with the fact that I'm lazy and never do anything, so I have a lot of time to think. :P

I believe that the universe just is and knowing or not knowing the reasons behind it have no significance in our lives.

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However, the Christians have faith that there is evil, so it must exist.

I believe that evil is, in essence, a lack of love.

 

And so...

Or, we just mis-interpret events as being evil, when in fact they are not.

...is most likely

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The Big Bang theory explains its own creation in a rather elegant mathematical way. A singularity is asymptotic, so there was no time before the big bang. I find it more reasonable than there was nothing and then god created the Universe. Instead time happened when the universe did.

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All right, there is so much stuff here I want to reply too, but most all of it can be summed up.

 

 

None of you, I repeat, none of you know God's plan. Intellectuals/Atheists think religion is so narrow minded, and science is the broader picture. You think multi-verses is such a phenomenal theory, and hard to comprehend. But I assure you, God's plan is bigger than this universe. I can assure you, we are not the only existence. I wish I had time to explain to all of you what I know, but I will try to compress what I know into a short post.

 

 

Think of this life as college. Before college, we lived at home with our parents. Before this life, we lived in heaven with God. To progress, we move on to college, or ,in life, Earth. This is where it gets a little tricky... When we lived with God before this life (Or called the Premortal existence), we could fathom infinity. One of the things we were sent here to understand was time. Infinity here seems unfathomable, but it was quite the opposite in the premortal existence. Another thing we could not fathom was happiness, or unhappiness. Without opposition, we cannot understand stuff. How do you know what happiness is if you've never been sad? How do you describe color in a monochromatic world? How do you describe being full when you've never been hungry? It's impossible. It's just another part of God's plan, to teach us happiness and joy. God's work and glory is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life to man. Man is that he might have joy. But to understand joy, we must go through trials, which is why God allows evil to exist. It isn't that he can't stop evil, or that he's a horrible God, it's that he's much smarter than us.

 

The one thing you must understand is that this life, this universe isn't all there is. We were somebody before this life, and this life is only preparing us for the future. God trains us through trials and tribulations for our future. It's all about eternal progression.

 

I sincerely wish I could share all that I know about God, but like I said, there really isn't time or space. I know most of you, even Christians, are going to disagree with what I have said, but this is what I know. It is the only thing that makes sense, and I have felt its truth through the spirit.

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I dislike topics like this because they lack definition.

 

Define what you mean by god. An omnipotent, omniscient being? A force of the universe and nature? An idea? Secondly, people have a hard time releasing the concept of god from religion. When we talk about god we immediately assume positions of religion and insert copious amounts of bias. Religion was built AROUND the idea of a god so try to deconstruct that before entering into a debate about the existence of a god. Worse still, then the whole thread devolves into factioning between science and religion with both sides just slinging things about rather than entering into a discussion. Science says, "we need facts" and religion says "you need faith". Quite honestly this is all circular, so try to break yourself from these rhythms and look at these things objectively eh?

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It is obvious to me that many of you dabble haphazardly in religion, philosophy and science and have decided that you are now experts. I'd set you all straight, but I don't have the time right now (because the answers are easily misunderstood without further explanation and many times the explanations need explanations)and I doubt most of you would listen anyway.

 

I'll just keep it simple. There is a God. I know Him personally. You'll meet Him eventually.

  • Upvote 2

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I'll just keep it simple. There is a God. I know Him personally. You'll meet Him eventually.

 

I agree with you, but I'm uncertain as to whether God has a gender,

 

.

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It is obvious to me that many of you dabble haphazardly in religion, philosophy and science and have decided that you are now experts. I'd set you all straight, but I don't have the time right now (because the answers are easily misunderstood without further explanation and many times the explanations need explanations)and I doubt most of you would listen anyway.

 

I'll just keep it simple. There is a God. I know Him personally. You'll meet Him eventually.

 

That sounds oddly like something a Christian would say. The truth is you don't know any more than the rest of us, you just think you do.

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If you keep adding or subtracting numbers you'll never stop; you can always add or subtract one more. We call this infinity. I also apply the concept of infinity to time and space. The universe is infinitely large and time has no beginning or end.

Why are we here? I don't know. But I do know that humans are social animals and therefore, in my opinion; it is the selfless person who cares about others that is good, and the selfish person who doesn't who is evil. Of course I realize that we all reside somewhere between these extremes and admit I often struggle with my own ego, wishing I was a more loving person.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't need a God.

I get by with a little help from my friends. :)

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EDITED: Cool head prevailed and besides It's 3:48 AM, am half asleep and in no condition to post :P

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The universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure. Repent before the coming of the great white handkerchief

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My 3.86 cents:

 

Whether I believe in God or not is neither here no there. There is a chance that my belief is wrong and a chance that my belief is right, it's not necessarily true.

 

However what I do think, is that religion was built up over the human fear of death. Over the millenia people have needed to think that there is a higher power that will help them avoid famine an other natural disasters. Over time intelligent people saw it as a way of conreciting poetry people (heaven/hell) and manipulated people into giving them money and following their orders.

 

I will just quote something that sounded nice: "Man can live without god but not without religion".Religion was created over the fear of death and more.Conreciting poetry it for personal benefit was also a reason.

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Thats all im am going to say -_-

 

Image removed - Hurhur, let's keep this civil.

 

Christianity is considered a nice explanation of God.What Christians don't understand though is that God is not only described by the new bible but by the old one simultaneously.God is good AND bad.

 

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)

 

 

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

 

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

 

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

 

more Einstien qoutes...........

 

as for the Bible debate , a reputable oceanographer found thousands of coral formations that look a heck of a lot like chariots (wood rots , metal rusts , coral grows on something and stays) across the "land bridge" (about 100 ft deep straight across((the rest is a mile or so deep)) in the Red Sea.

 

 

 

PS cant forget this one from ole uncle Albert.....

 

"The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."

 

Its quite easy to understand the meaning of taxes! Draw a circle and try to draw 3 parallel lines all having 1 point in common with the circle and it will be clear.

 

More seriously,what did einstain knew more than all the others describing God so I will believe him? So I wouldn't use such quotes to support my sayings even though I agree with all of them.

 

Do you think you could find something to back this up? I'd like to read an article or two, or anything you might have. :)

 

And I do not see why science would need religion, do you?

 

Man from his nature is a social being.From his nature he is also limited.Without religion people(not you) would have perhaps less morals,if any.Wouldn't that make science something that humans should not deal with?So science needs to be limited not to what it might find but to what it might try to find.

 

Firstly, I was an atheist then i realized i AM god.

 

but jokes aside...

 

 

 

 

in a nutshell, the universe has too much matter and energy to be concentrated in a singularity, the big bang is the result of all matter in the universe being in a singularity for probably millionths of a microsecond, as it is too unstable to be sustained for any period of time past that. so the big bang is a relatively short event that is brought on by the universe collapsing on itself.

 

you may ask,'but the universe is slowly expanding' laws of physics 101, will a gas not diffuse to where it is least dense iin order to 'pan out?'

 

yes, the universe may exibit this behavior, its simple physics, but in order for there to be a big bang, there needs to be a bigt collapse, if its expanding how does this happen?

 

black holes, at the center of each galaxy, there exists a super massive black hole with the strength to keep trillions of stars and planets in its gravity well for billions of years, and we already know that any regular star can supernova and create a new black hole, but what would happen when the universe is aged enough, and more and mroe black holes form and current ones grow?

 

the universe, essentially would begin to draw itself back in, physics dictate so, as does logic. thus the universe, in my oppinion, collapses back into singularity, and poof, another big bang.

 

^my theory on the subject

 

as far as a GOD goes, well it could be that everything is his plan, it could be he created everything and were jsut chance and need to make the best of it ourselves...

 

but anyone who says god will guide me and does nothing is a fool, should look upon it as if god empowered you to do what he would through your own actions.

 

 

yup, thats right, universe repeats itself over and over, jsut like the cylons and the reapers in mass effect.

 

I agree with you on the universe and its revolution and was thinking of the exact same things(black holes).The most perfect mechanism we have seen is the universe.The most perfect shape is the circle.None knows their end nor their beginning but the general concept.

 

Being greek does not make me bias or something but ancient philosophers did a good job.What I recalled concerning "but anyone who says god will guide me and does nothing is a fool" is the saying: "Sun Athina kai xeira kinei" which translates to "Along with Athena,move your hand".That was referring to a sailor whose ship was sunk.Desperate he was and he prayed to Athena(god of wisdom) to save him.Its seems God(s) cannot do everything but without them wouldn't we try to not drown in the mid of the ocean but in the end fail?

 

You miss my point. I understand that the universe may repeat it self by the theory of the big bang, but that process had to start at some point. How? When? What caused it, and where did the materials come from?

 

There is no logical start to anything, which is the problem.

 

Just look around you and you will find most of the answers.I don't know what Einstein said but what Da Vinci did was to study nature and you saw how ahead of his time he was! Why does water,when at 4 degrees Cel. is the "heaviest"? Why bees at their nests make hexagonal cells? Why rain drops have their shape? Nature,gents and ladies,is smart and economical! Circle has the smallest perimeter for its area,hexagon has the biggest area for its perimeter.Contradicting? Tottaly.Most if not everything should be.So instead of finding how the system began find how it will end.

 

Most wise:

 

The universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure. Repent before the coming of the great white handkerchief

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Is there a God as the Christians tell us? No.

Is there a God as any other religion tells us? No, not really.

Is there a possibility that some superior being exists? Yes, there is. But most likely that superior being will be a member of another race. Or the whole race, it doesn't have to be just one.

 

Were we created by someone? It doesn't matter. Your life is what you make it.

 

Sums up what I think.

 

And who's forcing what on who?

 

Cut the hypocritical BS man...

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