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Ukraine: Who is on the right side?


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#21 Chunky Monkey

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:25 PM - 0830121

If the Bosphorus and Dardenlles were just bits of water between land for anyone to sail through then that would be true, but they are bits of water between land, where both pieces of land are controlled by Turkey, a member of NATO, who has the right to refuse passage to any ship. If a war broke out with Russia, their ships would be stuck in there.


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#22 Arkantos

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 11:27 PM - 0830122

Things are escalating again. There's a referendum in Crimea about rejoining Russia. A shooting war just became more likely.


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#23 Aloysius

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:34 AM - 0830123

It was bound to happen, I also read today that the official line is: "Moscow does not command the troops without national insignia which have taken control of Crimea, besieging Ukrainian forces, and hence cannot order them back to bases." That is insulting :/

http://www.smh.com.a...l#ixzz2vEb8FNUr


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#24 Arkantos

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:42 AM - 0830124

They're saying that for their internal media, not the international. Their internal media narrative is far different from the one presented by the international media.


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#25 Aloysius

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 02:16 AM - 0830125

Ah, interesting


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#26 Aurelius

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:39 AM - 0830126

It was bound to happen, I also read today that the official line is: "Moscow does not command the troops without national insignia which have taken control of Crimea, besieging Ukrainian forces, and hence cannot order them back to bases." That is insulting :/

http://www.smh.com.a...l#ixzz2vEb8FNUr

 

If I remember correctly, under international law, it doesn't matter if if they are wearing national insignia or not: effective command is the relevant test (although, the wearing of national insignia is strong evidence in favour of that test being satisfied). In other words, a pretty piss weak argument from Russia.


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#27 Arkantos

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:44 AM - 0830127

It helps that the US effectively has control of the rest of Europe and that China couldn't distancing themselves more if they were on Mars.

 

EDIT: The Duma just "welcomed" Crimea into Russia, and dismissed US and EU sanctions.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2....html?hpt=hp_t1

 

This is where I call it: Welcome to Cold War 2.0.


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#28 Chunky Monkey

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:28 PM - 0830128

It's only a cold war in the sense that we want to keep them from trying to nuke us. If nukes are off the table (and I don't think they are, but who knows), we would steamroll Russia handily.


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#29 Dark Wizard

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 05:28 AM - 0830129

I find the United States rhetoric (even as an American) repulsive. There is nothing more hypocritical than criticizing Russia for occupying the Crimea without the authorization of the Ukraine, when the United States will occupy anybody without their consent. Afghanistan and Iraq are the two obvious ones that come to mind. Did Russia threaten the US when it amassed troops in Saudi Arabia, not to this extent. I believe that the United States is making this a problem by how they are reacting. If the people of the Crimea want to become a part of Russia, what kind of democracy would the United States be if they did not support the will of the Crimean people? Many have compared this to appeasement, but the difference here is that the people from what we know want to be part of Russia. The right continue to attack Obama about his indecisiveness on the topic, when in fact he is doing too MUCH if anything. Just because Republicans get hard every time tensions flare, doesn't mean we need to hit the big red button without thinking things through. We are America, we need to focus on America. 


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#30 Arkantos

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 08:33 AM - 0830130

I find the United States rhetoric (even as an American) repulsive. There is nothing more hypocritical than criticizing Russia for occupying the Crimea without the authorization of the Ukraine, when the United States will occupy anybody without their consent. Afghanistan and Iraq are the two obvious ones that come to mind. Did Russia threaten the US when it amassed troops in Saudi Arabia, not to this extent. I believe that the United States is making this a problem by how they are reacting. If the people of the Crimea want to become a part of Russia, what kind of democracy would the United States be if they did not support the will of the Crimean people? Many have compared this to appeasement, but the difference here is that the people from what we know want to be part of Russia. The right continue to attack Obama about his indecisiveness on the topic, when in fact he is doing too MUCH if anything. Just because Republicans get hard every time tensions flare, doesn't mean we need to hit the big red button without thinking things through. We are America, we need to focus on America. 

 

Iraq and Afghanistan were different. We definitely had a valid casus belli in Afghanistan. Iraq is more debatable, but at least we had the courtesy to actually declare war on Iraq. In addition, both wars were the consequence of the 9/11 attacks, not Bush's desire to regain a region historically controlled by the US. Russia did not declare war when it invaded Crimea, and had no valid casus belli. They won't even acknowledge that it's their troops in Crimea.

 

Our troops are not in Saudi Arabia against the Saudi government's will, so that's a pointless comparison.

 

The United States is not a democracy, it is a Federal Republic that uses semi-democratic elections to choose two branches of its government. In addition, we now have rules about how an area of a country can split off and form its own country- look at South Sudan. The problem in Crimea about democracy is that there is currently no democratically elected government in Crimea. The Parliament was installed by pro-russian gunmen that stormed the parliament building. The referendum that's happening is happening impossibly quickly, so the results will not be anywhere near accurate. There is no "democracy" in Crimea right now, only the appearance of it. On top of that, being democratically elected is not the only thing that gives governments legitimacy. Legitimacy also comes from a respect of the rule of law, both within your country and internationally. The governments of Crimea and Russia are demonstrating that they couldn't care less about international law by doing this.

 

This IS appeasement. It's exactly the same, except that we're actually protesting when Russia expands. Their given reason for expanding into Crimea is EXACTLY the same as the one Germany used when it expanded: protecting members of their ethnicity. The people in Crimea are about 60% Russian anyways- the rest are Ukrainian and Tatar, who are vehemently opposed to leaving Ukraine. The fact is, we have no idea what percentage of the population of Crimea wants to stay in Ukraine and what percentage wants to rejoin Russia. We(the public) don't know much, if anything, about what the WHOLE population of Crimea wants.

 

To your last, very isolationist point, I say this: We are America, the world's last superpower. We hold the power to shape the world and make it a better place. We have a responsibility to wield that power.


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#31 Aloysius

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:48 PM - 0830131

Further to the previous post, its more than just America opposing what Russia is doing, and how it is doing it. I don't know of a single western power not seriously against what is going on. Armed troops have even been preventing UN inspectors from entering the region, Ukrainian TV stations are being pushed out by Russian state broadcasts.

 

What of the non-russian residents of Crimea, even if they are not the majority, they still have the right to be heard. I mean, it would be like having US citizens move into Nova Scotia to make a majority and then the US army rolling in to annex the place? Its just incredulous that this is happening in today's world.


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#32 Dark Wizard

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 06:20 PM - 0830132

 

Iraq and Afghanistan were different. We definitely had a valid casus belli in Afghanistan. Iraq is more debatable, but at least we had the courtesy to actually declare war on Iraq. In addition, both wars were the consequence of the 9/11 attacks, not Bush's desire to regain a region historically controlled by the US. Russia did not declare war when it invaded Crimea, and had no valid casus belli. They won't even acknowledge that it's their troops in Crimea.

 

 

 

We never declared war on Iraq or Afghanistan, we still invaded. There are associates of al-Qaeda and the Taliban throughout the world, certainly in more countries than just Afghanistan and Iraq, we don't have a casus belli do invade France for instance if we locate an operative there. I would also like to point out Bush might not have gone to the region to control these areas physically, but we all know it was for the oil. 

 

Our troops are not in Saudi Arabia against the Saudi government's will, so that's a pointless comparison.

 

They were in 1990 when the US was about to invade Iraq in the First Gulf War and needed a place to stockpile and gather troops. We occupied a sovereign country for our own advancement. 

 

The United States is not a democracy, it is a Federal Republic that uses semi-democratic elections to choose two branches of its government. In addition, we now have rules about how an area of a country can split off and form its own country- look at South Sudan. The problem in Crimea about democracy is that there is currently no democratically elected government in Crimea. The Parliament was installed by pro-russian gunmen that stormed the parliament building. The referendum that's happening is happening impossibly quickly, so the results will not be anywhere near accurate. There is no "democracy" in Crimea right now, only the appearance of it. On top of that, being democratically elected is not the only thing that gives governments legitimacy. Legitimacy also comes from a respect of the rule of law, both within your country and internationally. The governments of Crimea and Russia are demonstrating that they couldn't care less about international law by doing this.

 
You are blinded by patriotism. The United States doesn't care for international law either, making it hypocritical to call Russia out on it. Furthermore, the people of the Crimea have the right to vote. If the voting is rigged, which is most likely not going to be the case since the majority of people favor the Russian- Leaning government. In the last election cycle the Crimea vote over 90% to the Pro-Russian candidate. . 

 

 
This IS appeasement. It's exactly the same, except that we're actually protesting when Russia expands. Their given reason for expanding into Crimea is EXACTLY the same as the one Germany used when it expanded: protecting members of their ethnicity. The people in Crimea are about 60% Russian anyways- the rest are Ukrainian and Tatar, who are vehemently opposed to leaving Ukraine. The fact is, we have no idea what percentage of the population of Crimea wants to stay in Ukraine and what percentage wants to rejoin Russia. We(the public) don't know much, if anything, about what the WHOLE population of Crimea wants.

 

That is a senseless point. Nobody ever gets what they totally want. So if Crimea become part of Russia, some of the people might not get their wish, what happens when the roles are reversed, some of the people still don't get their wish. Also, this is not appeasement. Obama is moving warships into the area, he is working with NATO and the UN to reach a resolution. As I said above the US doesn't need to get hard and bone the nuclear war button any time there are troop movements. Unlike after WW2, Obama is condemning the actions of Russia, and making small movements to show Putin. Any big response could cause a catastrophe. 

 

To your last, very isolationist point, I say this: We are America, the world's last superpower. We hold the power to shape the world and make it a better place. We have a responsibility to wield that power.

Every time the US tries to make the world a better place the only people that are in a better place are the defense contractors back home. The people of the United States don't benefit. Foreign countries don't benefit. Look at Iraq, we went there to help them get free from their dictator Sadam Hussein, and what happens?  Before our invasion Iraq had NEVER (yes I said NEVER) had a suicide bombing. Since our invasion 12,000 CIVILIANS have been killed by suicide bombings, and this doesn't include US troops. Every action has a reaction. Every time we tinker in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and more, there is only negative effects. Ask the Afghan citizens that have had family members killed in US drones strikes (all 3000+ of them) if it was worth it. Ask the Syrian people how the "help" they received from the United States saved them from being gassed by their own ruler. Ask the families of fallen US soldiers in the middle east about the guns that the CIA supplied the people who killed their sons and daughters in order to fight a proxy war against the USSR. Every action has a reaction, what reaction will occur when the US tries to police the Ukraine as well. 


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#33 Chunky Monkey

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:02 PM - 0830133

Last official poll in Crimea had only 41% of the population voting to join Russia.

 

And I would be more inclined to agree with you about US hypocrisy if literally everyone that isn't Russia wasn't demanding that Russia stop.


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#34 Dark Wizard

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 08:10 PM - 0830134

I dont disagree chunky, but everybody is hypocritical. They all let the US get away with all these human rights violations and invade sovereign nations with no repercussions. Its sad. 


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#35 Arkantos

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:53 AM - 0830135

Yes, and we did all those things in the name of a legitimate cause: fighting terrorism. Russia's only goal in invading Crimea is annexing it. You're comparing apples to oranges.


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#36 Member Berry

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 04:46 PM - 0830136

 

To your last, very isolationist point, I say this: We are America, the world's last superpower. We hold the power to shape the world and make it a better place. We have a responsibility to wield that power.

 

 

No.  We may be the last super power but not for long ? You know why ? because of exactly what has been happening for the last 10 years.  WE are in almost 20tril in debt.  WE are borrowing and cannot solve our own problems.  We shouldn't involve ourselves in everyone's business only involve ourselves in matters that will directly affect us.  Fix all the problems at home first. 

 

Yes, and we did all those things in the name of a legitimate cause: fighting terrorism. Russia's only goal in invading Crimea is annexing it. You're comparing apples to

 

oranges.

Iraq wasn't legitimate.  It was a waste of lives and money.  

The people of Crimea have legitimate concerns, they are worried about what is happening in their country.  Sure all the problems could be solved without Russia invading it but at the same time what if all the people in Crimea want to be part of Russia? that's a democracy.   I think the Russian invasion is wrong and the problems could be easily solved in a different way,  the new gov in Kiev should listen to the citizens in Crimea and address their concerns, possibly giving them more autonomy 


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#37 Chunky Monkey

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 05:12 PM - 0830137

If all the people in Crimea want to be part of Russia, then Russia should have no problem leaving and waiting for a real vote by a regional government that was elected by it's people instead of one appointed by armed gunmen. Since they aren't doing that, clearly they know that won't happen, and now that they have done what they have done, they have no choice but to annex Crimea or lose Sevastopol as a port, since there is no way the Ukraine lets them use it after this. The reason we (the US) need to be on alert is so we can get involved if Russia tries to take more than just the Ukraine, as every other country that borders the Ukraine is part of NATO, and we are treaty bound to defend them.


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#38 Arkantos

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 05:33 PM - 0830138

The people of Crimea have legitimate concerns, they are worried about what is happening in their country.  Sure all the problems could be solved without Russia invading it but at the same time what if all the people in Crimea want to be part of Russia? that's a democracy.

 

Much of Texas is fairly dissatisfied with the present way Washington is working, yet they're not trying to secede. Know why? Because they know they can wait until the next election to address their issues. In any democracy, there is no excuse for armed revolt of any kind- you can always vote out the people you don't like and vote in one that represent you.


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#39 Dark Wizard

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 11:37 PM - 0830139

Yes, and we did all those things in the name of a legitimate cause: fighting terrorism. Russia's only goal in invading Crimea is annexing it. You're comparing apples to oranges.

"Fighting Terrorism" also known as setting up puppet governments to gain the advantage in the race for oil. 


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#40 Aloysius

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:10 AM - 0830140

 

Yes, and we did all those things in the name of a legitimate cause: fighting terrorism. Russia's only goal in invading Crimea is annexing it. You're comparing apples to oranges.

"Fighting Terrorism" also known as setting up puppet governments to gain the advantage in the race for oil. 

 

DW, y u so narrow minded? :P


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