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Ukraine: Who is on the right side?


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#41 Dark Wizard

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:21 AM - 0830141

 

 

Yes, and we did all those things in the name of a legitimate cause: fighting terrorism. Russia's only goal in invading Crimea is annexing it. You're comparing apples to oranges.

"Fighting Terrorism" also known as setting up puppet governments to gain the advantage in the race for oil. 

 

DW, y u so narrow minded? :P

 

I would argue I'm the open minded one in this discussion. Everybody is latching onto what the mainstream media is feeding them. There is always an ulterior motive. We were in Iraq before 9/11, we disregarded Bin Laden when he told us to stay out of the Middle East and that he could handle Hussein, what do we do? We invade. Then we wonder why anybody could ever attack the great savoir the United States. Every time. 


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#42 Aloysius

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:48 AM - 0830142

I would counter that argument, and say that you've got to be joking to say that the USA went to war for the sole purpose of securing its oil supply. I'm not for a second suggesting it would not have played a role, but to credit it a the sole, or even most important, factor is narrow, in my view.

 

Regardless, there is little similarity between that war and what is happening in Crimea. In Iraq you had a dictator who was not only responsible for crimes against humanity, his children got in on the action too.

 

In the Ukraine you have a country in the midst of a fight to bring reform, which deposed its Russian puppet leader, only to then have Russia waltz in, install a new parliament and call for a referendum in one of its territories. Anyone who honestly believes that the current Crimean parliament, and the upcoming referendum, are in any way democratic, you're delusional.

 

Something of particular interest to me is the welfare of the Crimean Tartars. Expelled from their ancestral lands by Stalin, and having slowly returned over the years since, shouldn't their voice be heard above that of Russian immigrants who moved there to retire?


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#43 Dark Wizard

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:03 AM - 0830143

I would counter that argument, and say that you've got to be joking to say that the USA went to war for the sole purpose of securing its oil supply. I'm not for a second suggesting it would not have played a role, but to credit it a the sole, or even most important, factor is narrow, in my view.

 

Regardless, there is little similarity between that war and what is happening in Crimea. In Iraq you had a dictator who was not only responsible for crimes against humanity, his children got in on the action too.

 

In the Ukraine you have a country in the midst of a fight to bring reform, which deposed its Russian puppet leader, only to then have Russia waltz in, install a new parliament and call for a referendum in one of its territories. Anyone who honestly believes that the current Crimean parliament, and the upcoming referendum, are in any way democratic, you're delusional.

 

Something of particular interest to me is the welfare of the Crimean Tartars. Expelled from their ancestral lands by Stalin, and having slowly returned over the years since, shouldn't their voice be heard above that of Russian immigrants who moved there to retire?

 

I don't think it is for the sole purpose of oil. I believe it is for a mixture between oil, cleaning up the messes we have already made, and to supply the Military Industrial Complex with a goal to work towards. Furthermore, I do believe there are parallels between Iraq and Ukraine. The US went into Iraq under false pretenses, as did Russia into Crimea (hell they won't even acknowledge that they are in Crimea). The US had motives besides what is best for the Iraqis, as does Russia in the Ukraine. The US broke international law, as did Russia. The US will not recognize that they are doing anything wrong, as with Russia. Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of Russia invading Ukraine, but the US is not in the position to police them given their track record. I do agree that the Crimean people should be allowed to vote in a safe environment regarding whether or not they want to join Russia. Honestly though, none of this would have began if the EU hadn't toyed with the Ukraine about something that they were never serious about. If there is to be any authority behind the actions taken against Russia in needs to be China specifically to calm Russia down. More than anything, the sides need to talk to each other, stop the deploying fighter jets and navy ships and actually get some work done. Both sides knows the other is just playing hardball, so stop the bs and find a resolution. 


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#44 Aloysius

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:31 AM - 0830144

I believe it is for a mixture between oil, cleaning up the messes we have already made, and to supply the Military Industrial Complex with a goal to work towards. Furthermore, I do believe there are parallels between Iraq and Ukraine. The US went into Iraq under false pretenses, as did Russia into Crimea (hell they won't even acknowledge that they are in Crimea). The US had motives besides what is best for the Iraqis, as does Russia in the Ukraine. The US broke international law, as did Russia. The US will not recognize that they are doing anything wrong, as with Russia. Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of Russia invading Ukraine, but the US is not in the position to police them given their track record. 

 
I suppose this is where we differ. I see the base motivation for the conflict in Iraq as an attempt to do good, as misguided as it may have been. On the other hand, Russia isn't trying to improve the situation in the Ukraine, its trying to capitalise on an already bad situation.
 

I do agree that the Crimean people should be allowed to vote in a safe environment regarding whether or not they want to join Russia. Honestly though, none of this would have began if the EU hadn't toyed with the Ukraine about something that they were never serious about. If there is to be any authority behind the actions taken against Russia in needs to be China specifically to calm Russia down. More than anything, the sides need to talk to each other, stop the deploying fighter jets and navy ships and actually get some work done. Both sides knows the other is just playing hardball, so stop the bs and find a resolution. 

 

At least we can agree on some things! hehe

 

But you can hardly have blamed the EU for not really wanting to get involved with the old Ukraine govt, if anything they should be commended as an agent for change.


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#45 Dark Wizard

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:55 AM - 0830145

 

I believe it is for a mixture between oil, cleaning up the messes we have already made, and to supply the Military Industrial Complex with a goal to work towards. Furthermore, I do believe there are parallels between Iraq and Ukraine. The US went into Iraq under false pretenses, as did Russia into Crimea (hell they won't even acknowledge that they are in Crimea). The US had motives besides what is best for the Iraqis, as does Russia in the Ukraine. The US broke international law, as did Russia. The US will not recognize that they are doing anything wrong, as with Russia. Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of Russia invading Ukraine, but the US is not in the position to police them given their track record. 

 
I suppose this is where we differ. I see the base motivation for the conflict in Iraq as an attempt to do good, as misguided as it may have been. On the other hand, Russia isn't trying to improve the situation in the Ukraine, its trying to capitalise on an already bad situation.
 

I do agree that the Crimean people should be allowed to vote in a safe environment regarding whether or not they want to join Russia. Honestly though, none of this would have began if the EU hadn't toyed with the Ukraine about something that they were never serious about. If there is to be any authority behind the actions taken against Russia in needs to be China specifically to calm Russia down. More than anything, the sides need to talk to each other, stop the deploying fighter jets and navy ships and actually get some work done. Both sides knows the other is just playing hardball, so stop the bs and find a resolution. 

 

At least we can agree on some things! hehe

 

But you can hardly have blamed the EU for not really wanting to get involved with the old Ukraine govt, if anything they should be commended as an agent for change.

 

The only thing I see here is that I will hold onto the fact that this is in some ways the EU's fault. Under no circumstances is the EU expected to admit Ukraine into the agreement, but what they did was go out of their way to hint to the Ukrainian people of the wonders it could do for the economy, leading them to believe they were being offered a spot in the EU. The EU had no intention of allowing them in (justifiably so). This is when the riots began and the government overthrown. Then Russia moves in. 


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