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oddsox

Ferguson, Missouri

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So they didn't indict this guy, who shot an unarmed kid several times. What ever happened to tasers? Cant we use tasers and not bullets? All of this could have been easily avoided if that guy was smarter and used a taser or just told him to go away, he had no right stopping him them shooting him. Now there are riots in New York and Ferguson. Seems like you can get away with anything in the US these days. 

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Well Oddsox, we're in a covert form of dictatorship at the moment so police officers and military can do as they wish to anyone at any time without fear of serious repercussions. At worst he'll get fired there and move two states over to get another cop job.

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The results of the indictment trial were appalling and sad, but that said, the response has been absolutely unacceptable. It is not acceptable, or even legal to protest in the violent manner that has been going about. Every fiber of my being wanted officer Wilson to get charged with a crime, but the failure of such thing to happen does not justify the destruction of property and violent acts. Such actions only trap our society in a perpetual state of violence, something none of us want. 

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From what I've read, the first shots fired were actually shot in the car as Michael Brown's blood was found in the car. Additionally, the autopsy showed that one of Browns gunshot wounds was at close range, which could corroborate a struggle in the car. Add the wounds the cop had, and it seems as though Brown did attack the cop in the car before being shot repeatedly later in the street. I do not have all the facts, as the GJ did, but regardless...this a sad situation all the way around.

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As an outsider, it's very complicated but ultimately sad to me.

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Well Oddsox, we're in a covert form of dictatorship at the moment so police officers and military can do as they wish to anyone at any time without fear of serious repercussions. At worst he'll get fired there and move two states over to get another cop job.

Honestly, I think someone is going to see him in public one day and gun him down. That's just how America operates.

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Well I thought someone would've killed Zimmerman by now too, so we'll just have to see.Also I'm with DW on the actions of so called protesters. They make geniune protesters look bad and make their communities worse rather than better. It's the same thing that happened after the grand jury failed to indict the LAPD cops that beat up Rodney King. People use some people's legitimate gripes to carry out a few hours of lawlessness.

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There are two sides of the story... both sides have facts that back each story up.  I don't see how you can really make a decision of what happened.  That being said it is a tragic event although I am a little biased towards the officer and am happy that he was cleared.

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Not being American this isn't a story I'm familiar with - I'm guessing it is another 'young man got shot when maybe he shouldn't' event?

 

I'm also guessing it will be end up simply used as more fuel for both sides of the gun laws argument 

 

Also I'm with DW on the actions of so called protesters. They make geniune protesters look bad and make their communities worse rather than better. 

Absolutely, much like the London riots we had a few years back - Started out as a genuine peaceful protest (about a similar event IIRC), which then got hijacked and turned into full-scale riots and looting.

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Personally I don't believe this shooting was racially motivated at all. I think there was an incident and the officer did probably feel threatened and thus should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is true though that officers in the US can be trigger easy. However, if everyone obeyed officers and did not taunt, assault or disobey their orders life would be a lot easier. They have a very stressful job and need to do what they feel is necessary within reasonable means to ensure their safety. 

 

In terms of the riots, I think people have misunderstood and believe the shooting was racially motivated etc. so while I disagree with the meaning behind this particular riot I am in favour of riots and find them to be almost beautiful in a twisted kind of way. Nothing greater than a group of people coming together and fighting for their beliefs. The fact that they are so affected and touched by this incident that they would risk injury/being arrested speaks miles about the American spirit and I find it inspirational tbh. People over there seem to be a lot more courageous and driven than over here in Australia. I hate this complacent and apathetic attitude here. Americans on the otherhand are willing to fight for their beliefs etc as they have always done. When the law "fails" them, they will not tolerate it and will rebel against authority. Perhaps what I admire is that it's close to anarchy but at the end of the day humanity shines through and people work together for a common purpose.

 

Anyway, I know a lot of you will disagree with me but as a non American I really admire the American culture; even the violent aspects to the point where I find it inspirational. After all America was born from violence and it has become a part of the American psyche. Not necessarily a bad thing at all. Maybe I have a bias though as I have a dream of becoming a US Marine.  :P

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They (the looters and vandals) are simply opportunists using the tragedy for self-gain. It makes absolutely no sense to destroy the community around them. Peaceful protests can be an excellent tool, but this is terrible.

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Personally I don't believe this shooting was racially motivated at all. I think there was an incident and the officer did probably feel threatened and thus should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is true though that officers in the US can be trigger easy. However, if everyone obeyed officers and did not taunt, assault or disobey their orders life would be a lot easier. They have a very stressful job and need to do what they feel is necessary within reasonable means to ensure their safety. 

Enough said.

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I don't know much about this situation, but I've seen plenty of valid protests become derailed and demonised by the actions of an either an angry and violent or simply destructive minority. I know it's incredibly frustrating for the original protesters as much as it is frustrating for anyone else, because it can serious damage the credibility of the message they were trying to send.

I think in any situation like this, it's important to consider what the original protesters were saying, and to see it as their message vs the one they're opposing, and to not see the rioters as part of the equation in ensuing discussions.

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The thing that gets me was that this was an indictment, not a trial. In 2010, the most recent year where data can be collected, there were over 120,000 cases brought before grand jury  and only 11  yes ELEVEN did not get an indictment. There was an immense amount of pressure put on this grand jury and they acted like a trial jury. No matter what side you are on in regards to this issue, it is clear there was enough evidence and reasonable doubt to force a trial. This guy got off without as much as a trial for shooting an unarmed teenager 6 times. The details are sketchy, and that is what a trial jury is for, unfortunately they will never get that chance. The job of a grand jury is to decide if there is sufficient evidence for a formal trial. People have been indicted on significantly less than a a bullet ridden corpse. Don't get me wrong, I'm  not saying this guy was guilty, I'm simply saying he should have gotten a trial and the trial jury should have decided his fate. The saying always goes "You will get you day in court", well apparently that doesn't apply in this case. For reference, there is about a .00009% that a person is not indicted of a crime when brought before a grand jury. 

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If one country systematically oppresses a group of people-- expect violence. Just look at the French revolution, Israel-Palestine, or even the American Revolution. 

 

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but don't be surprised. 

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Well Luke, I served in the USMC almost 10 years and speaking out of experience in a combat zone, you're there to eliminate threats to be sure but you're also trained to know when deadly force is authorized and justified. LEO's have many tools and are supposed to be well trained to handle situations with the least amount of damage possible. Even if this officer was attacked, the perp was unarmed so he could've used non lethal measures to contain the situation. If someone fears an unarmed person to the point they feel their lives are in danger, then they need another job because that's not how professionals are expected to handle themselves. All cops aren't bad to be sure, but in this case (and several others that aren't widely publicized) the officer violated several points of protocol and used lethal force that was totally unnecessary. Sure they have to protect themselves and sure people should obey the laws. Most police these days are the youngsters that went overseas after the war was basically over and now they're back here thinking they can bully Americans around the same way when we have different rights and rules. Put shortly, if you're so afraid of being hurt that you have to shoot everyone, you're a coward and you shouldn't own a firearm.

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Well Luke, I served in the USMC almost 10 years and speaking out of experience in a combat zone, you're there to eliminate threats to be sure but you're also trained to know when deadly force is authorized and justified. LEO's have many tools and are supposed to be well trained to handle situations with the least amount of damage possible. Even if this officer was attacked, the perp was unarmed so he could've used non lethal measures to contain the situation. If someone fears an unarmed person to the point they feel their lives are in danger, then they need another job because that's not how professionals are expected to handle themselves. All cops aren't bad to be sure, but in this case (and several others that aren't widely publicized) the officer violated several points of protocol and used lethal force that was totally unnecessary. Sure they have to protect themselves and sure people should obey the laws. Most police these days are the youngsters that went overseas after the war was basically over and now they're back here thinking they can bully Americans around the same way when we have different rights and rules. Put shortly, if you're so afraid of being hurt that you have to shoot everyone, you're a coward and you shouldn't own a firearm.

 

Yeah, the officer sounds like me when I play SWAT 4. 

 

I'm supposed to only point my weapon at the old grandma and tell her to get on the ground, but instead I get a little trigger happy and accidentally shoot her in the face. Good thing that only points are deducted at the end of the mission. 

 

tl;dr I shouldn't be a cop

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Well Luke, I served in the USMC almost 10 years and speaking out of experience in a combat zone, you're there to eliminate threats to be sure but you're also trained to know when deadly force is authorized and justified. LEO's have many tools and are supposed to be well trained to handle situations with the least amount of damage possible. Even if this officer was attacked, the perp was unarmed so he could've used non lethal measures to contain the situation. If someone fears an unarmed person to the point they feel their lives are in danger, then they need another job because that's not how professionals are expected to handle themselves. All cops aren't bad to be sure, but in this case (and several others that aren't widely publicized) the officer violated several points of protocol and used lethal force that was totally unnecessary. Sure they have to protect themselves and sure people should obey the laws. Most police these days are the youngsters that went overseas after the war was basically over and now they're back here thinking they can bully Americans around the same way when we have different rights and rules. Put shortly, if you're so afraid of being hurt that you have to shoot everyone, you're a coward and you shouldn't own a firearm.

 

 

Yeah, the officer sounds like me when I play SWAT 4. 

 

I'm supposed to only point my weapon at the old grandma and tell her to get on the ground, but instead I get a little trigger happy and accidentally shoot her in the face. Good thing that only points are deducted at the end of the mission. 

 

tl;dr I shouldn't be a cop

"accidentally" Freddy? Lol. I "accidentally" dropped a smoke grenade in an Iraqi hut once because we were looking for the guys nephew who just happened to be in their refrigerator. :D Sounds like the grandma on the game is a threat to your authoritay, I'd gun her down too.

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Well Luke, I served in the USMC almost 10 years and speaking out of experience in a combat zone, you're there to eliminate threats to be sure but you're also trained to know when deadly force is authorized and justified. LEO's have many tools and are supposed to be well trained to handle situations with the least amount of damage possible. Even if this officer was attacked, the perp was unarmed so he could've used non lethal measures to contain the situation. If someone fears an unarmed person to the point they feel their lives are in danger, then they need another job because that's not how professionals are expected to handle themselves. All cops aren't bad to be sure, but in this case (and several others that aren't widely publicized) the officer violated several points of protocol and used lethal force that was totally unnecessary. Sure they have to protect themselves and sure people should obey the laws. Most police these days are the youngsters that went overseas after the war was basically over and now they're back here thinking they can bully Americans around the same way when we have different rights and rules. Put shortly, if you're so afraid of being hurt that you have to shoot everyone, you're a coward and you shouldn't own a firearm.

 

Yeah, the officer sounds like me when I play SWAT 4. 

 

I'm supposed to only point my weapon at the old grandma and tell her to get on the ground, but instead I get a little trigger happy and accidentally shoot her in the face. Good thing that only points are deducted at the end of the mission. 

 

tl;dr I shouldn't be a cop

"accidentally" Freddy? Lol. I "accidentally" dropped a smoke grenade in an Iraqi hut once because we were looking for the guys nephew who just happened to be in their refrigerator. :D Sounds like the grandma on the game is a threat to your authoritay, I'd gun her down too.

 

 

In my defense, all her screaming when I bust through her porch door unannounced made me feel threatened. I mean jeez, why would grandma scream if she wasn't cooking meth?

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LMMFAO! I'm gonna have to check it out.

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Well Luke, I served in the USMC almost 10 years and speaking out of experience in a combat zone, you're there to eliminate threats to be sure but you're also trained to know when deadly force is authorized and justified. LEO's have many tools and are supposed to be well trained to handle situations with the least amount of damage possible. Even if this officer was attacked, the perp was unarmed so he could've used non lethal measures to contain the situation. If someone fears an unarmed person to the point they feel their lives are in danger, then they need another job because that's not how professionals are expected to handle themselves. All cops aren't bad to be sure, but in this case (and several others that aren't widely publicized) the officer violated several points of protocol and used lethal force that was totally unnecessary. Sure they have to protect themselves and sure people should obey the laws. Most police these days are the youngsters that went overseas after the war was basically over and now they're back here thinking they can bully Americans around the same way when we have different rights and rules. Put shortly, if you're so afraid of being hurt that you have to shoot everyone, you're a coward and you shouldn't own a firearm.

You raise good points. From my understanding though the guy was actually assaulting the officer at the window of the vehicle. No taser was being carried and a mace was impractical. When he raised his gun a struggle ensued over the weapon and the first 2 times the officer fired the weapon it jammed because of the way the gun was being handled in the struggle. Apparently after these shots were fired Brown became really aggro. I do agree with your key points and I believe that he could have handled the situation better. I don't want to go too off topic here but what you said about coming back from war raises another good point. I think a major issue with policing these days is that they are developing the "soldier mentality". Whereas policing is meant to be about engaging with the community I think police today are perhaps more aggressive than they have to be. The surplus of military gear that is coming back from the Mid East won't help the issue. People are gonna see cops in military gear/military vehicles and it's going to further exacerbate the trust issues between civilians and police. By very nature police and the military are meant to fulfill separate roles and I kinda feel that this distinction has in a way started to get difficult to see in the eyes of many Americans. I'm probably not explaining myself right but this is what I'm trying to highlight. http://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/08/18/from-fallujah-to-ferguson-the-dangerous-militarization-of-american-policing/The militarization of police.

 

Anyway, is it okay if I talk to you on IRC sometime whenever you're free Ionzomac about the USMC? I've got a few questions about enlisting and careers. As a sidenote I didn't realise you are a marine. I really respect you guys. Thanks for your service! 

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Just a sidenote and OOC observation. 

 

We need more discussion like this. I think it has been a respectable conversation and an activity booster. While the situation being discussed is very sad, I hope to see more positive discussion about bettering our society in the future :)

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Just a sidenote and OOC observation. 

 

We need more discussion like this. I think it has been a respectable conversation and an activity booster. While the situation being discussed is very sad, I hope to see more positive discussion about bettering our society in the future :)

Completely agree.

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Sure thing Luke, I can get on IRC just about any time in the early afternoon and night time.I'm on Eastern US time. Back to what you said, the cop screwed up if those are the facts. First, he was suspecting him of robbery, protocol generally states that you observe and wait for backup to arrive before engaging a potentially armed person that just committed a felony. Second, take the vehicle out of the equation because the boy was shot 35 feet away from the vehicle (some say 100s of feet honestly I have no idea), so why lethal action if he didn't take the weapon that he should've never been in reaching distance of anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against cops at all, I'm against the abuse of authority and the fact that they can kill people for very little reason but I go to jail if I do.You're misunderstood about the vets mentality though for the most part. People that have shot and killed other people don't want to do it without a good reason. Even overseas you're not allowed to just blast someone because they spooked you. In my opinion based on what I've read and heard (honestly none of us can say for sure because we weren't there) the cop could've subdued him without having to fire a lethal shot. Why aim for center mass that close to someone unless your intent is to make them die? Why not aim for the legs? Why didn't he just keep the guy in sight until backup came? The officer meant to kill someone that he didn't have to, that's manslaughter at least, he's really a disgrace to peacekeepers everywhere and just made all of their jobs a bit harder. The 'protesters' are a disgrace to humanity and freedom itself. Protesting against anything is great, even the anti-war (anti-military) protesters were ok. These people aren't protesting anything, they're using the death of a kid as an excuse to rob, steal and vandalize. What's funny to me is that the one cop shot and killed an unarmed kid yet an entire gang of cops managed not to kill anyone yet despite rampant violence, gunshots, thefts, arson etc etc. They didn't do it because they didn't HAVE to, they probably should've killed some of those stupid SOB's but they showed restraint and tried not to make it worse. ;)

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Sure thing Luke, I can get on IRC just about any time in the early afternoon and night time.I'm on Eastern US time. Back to what you said, the cop screwed up if those are the facts. First, he was suspecting him of robbery, protocol generally states that you observe and wait for backup to arrive before engaging a potentially armed person that just committed a felony. Second, take the vehicle out of the equation because the boy was shot 35 feet away from the vehicle (some say 100s of feet honestly I have no idea), so why lethal action if he didn't take the weapon that he should've never been in reaching distance of anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against cops at all, I'm against the abuse of authority and the fact that they can kill people for very little reason but I go to jail if I do.You're misunderstood about the vets mentality though for the most part. People that have shot and killed other people don't want to do it without a good reason. Even overseas you're not allowed to just blast someone because they spooked you. In my opinion based on what I've read and heard (honestly none of us can say for sure because we weren't there) the cop could've subdued him without having to fire a lethal shot. Why aim for center mass that close to someone unless your intent is to make them die? Why not aim for the legs? Why didn't he just keep the guy in sight until backup came? The officer meant to kill someone that he didn't have to, that's manslaughter at least, he's really a disgrace to peacekeepers everywhere and just made all of their jobs a bit harder. The 'protesters' are a disgrace to humanity and freedom itself. Protesting against anything is great, even the anti-war (anti-military) protesters were ok. These people aren't protesting anything, they're using the death of a kid as an excuse to rob, steal and vandalize. What's funny to me is that the one cop shot and killed an unarmed kid yet an entire gang of cops managed not to kill anyone yet despite rampant violence, gunshots, thefts, arson etc etc. They didn't do it because they didn't HAVE to, they probably should've killed some of those stupid SOB's but they showed restraint and tried not to make it worse. ;)

I have to say I'm enjoying this convo. You have a good perspective on things and have given me new insight.  :) You're the expert here so your arguments will be more valid than mine. After reading what you said I certainly agree that he messed up protocol. I didn't realise cops had to wait for backup to arrive before engaging in those situations. In terms of the distance I'm going by what I read and saw from the prosecutor but I held the belief that he came up to the car a skirmish happened, he was shot because of the skirmish and the officer felt under threat of being overpowered and having the gun turned on him, and then he attempted to run before returning to charge at the officer. That's what I think this whole gun reaching struggle was about. I'm not sure of the exact facts but that's just what I've read in the media. In terms of what you said about keeping him in sight until backup came I completely agree with you. I watched an interview of him trying to justify himself today saying they're trained to follow the perp etc but I agree with what you are saying. 

In terms of the protests what I've always found interesting is that these lower class communities always seem to attack their own community, demolishing their own stores etc. I believe similar things happened after Martin Luther King was assassinated, in the earlier Watts Riots, and in the LA riots of '92. In terms of this particular riots I think that the cops have done a decent job, having used gas and rubber bullets. I wouldn't have deployed the dogs though just because it portrays an aggressive image in the face of global media. And I definitely believe that the restraint they showed was the right decision in trying to calm the situation as more violence from the police would have simply added fuel to the fire. 

 

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading what you had to say. You brought up a lot of points I hadn't considered or wasn't aware of. I look forward to our convo about the USMC.  :D I will most likely be online tomorrow, your afternoon and evening so all should work out. Cheers Ionzo. 

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