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#21 The End

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:19 AM - 0903721

Well Luke, I served in the USMC almost 10 years and speaking out of experience in a combat zone, you're there to eliminate threats to be sure but you're also trained to know when deadly force is authorized and justified. LEO's have many tools and are supposed to be well trained to handle situations with the least amount of damage possible. Even if this officer was attacked, the perp was unarmed so he could've used non lethal measures to contain the situation. If someone fears an unarmed person to the point they feel their lives are in danger, then they need another job because that's not how professionals are expected to handle themselves. All cops aren't bad to be sure, but in this case (and several others that aren't widely publicized) the officer violated several points of protocol and used lethal force that was totally unnecessary. Sure they have to protect themselves and sure people should obey the laws. Most police these days are the youngsters that went overseas after the war was basically over and now they're back here thinking they can bully Americans around the same way when we have different rights and rules. Put shortly, if you're so afraid of being hurt that you have to shoot everyone, you're a coward and you shouldn't own a firearm.

You raise good points. From my understanding though the guy was actually assaulting the officer at the window of the vehicle. No taser was being carried and a mace was impractical. When he raised his gun a struggle ensued over the weapon and the first 2 times the officer fired the weapon it jammed because of the way the gun was being handled in the struggle. Apparently after these shots were fired Brown became really aggro. I do agree with your key points and I believe that he could have handled the situation better. I don't want to go too off topic here but what you said about coming back from war raises another good point. I think a major issue with policing these days is that they are developing the "soldier mentality". Whereas policing is meant to be about engaging with the community I think police today are perhaps more aggressive than they have to be. The surplus of military gear that is coming back from the Mid East won't help the issue. People are gonna see cops in military gear/military vehicles and it's going to further exacerbate the trust issues between civilians and police. By very nature police and the military are meant to fulfill separate roles and I kinda feel that this distinction has in a way started to get difficult to see in the eyes of many Americans. I'm probably not explaining myself right but this is what I'm trying to highlight. http://theprogressiv...rican-policing/The militarization of police.

 

Anyway, is it okay if I talk to you on IRC sometime whenever you're free Ionzomac about the USMC? I've got a few questions about enlisting and careers. As a sidenote I didn't realise you are a marine. I really respect you guys. Thanks for your service! 


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#22 Dark Wizard

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 07:37 AM - 0903722

Just a sidenote and OOC observation. 

 

We need more discussion like this. I think it has been a respectable conversation and an activity booster. While the situation being discussed is very sad, I hope to see more positive discussion about bettering our society in the future :)


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#23 The End

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 08:41 AM - 0903723

Just a sidenote and OOC observation. 

 

We need more discussion like this. I think it has been a respectable conversation and an activity booster. While the situation being discussed is very sad, I hope to see more positive discussion about bettering our society in the future :)

Completely agree.


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#24 lonzomac

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 09:26 AM - 0903724

Sure thing Luke, I can get on IRC just about any time in the early afternoon and night time.I'm on Eastern US time. Back to what you said, the cop screwed up if those are the facts. First, he was suspecting him of robbery, protocol generally states that you observe and wait for backup to arrive before engaging a potentially armed person that just committed a felony. Second, take the vehicle out of the equation because the boy was shot 35 feet away from the vehicle (some say 100s of feet honestly I have no idea), so why lethal action if he didn't take the weapon that he should've never been in reaching distance of anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against cops at all, I'm against the abuse of authority and the fact that they can kill people for very little reason but I go to jail if I do.You're misunderstood about the vets mentality though for the most part. People that have shot and killed other people don't want to do it without a good reason. Even overseas you're not allowed to just blast someone because they spooked you. In my opinion based on what I've read and heard (honestly none of us can say for sure because we weren't there) the cop could've subdued him without having to fire a lethal shot. Why aim for center mass that close to someone unless your intent is to make them die? Why not aim for the legs? Why didn't he just keep the guy in sight until backup came? The officer meant to kill someone that he didn't have to, that's manslaughter at least, he's really a disgrace to peacekeepers everywhere and just made all of their jobs a bit harder. The 'protesters' are a disgrace to humanity and freedom itself. Protesting against anything is great, even the anti-war (anti-military) protesters were ok. These people aren't protesting anything, they're using the death of a kid as an excuse to rob, steal and vandalize. What's funny to me is that the one cop shot and killed an unarmed kid yet an entire gang of cops managed not to kill anyone yet despite rampant violence, gunshots, thefts, arson etc etc. They didn't do it because they didn't HAVE to, they probably should've killed some of those stupid SOB's but they showed restraint and tried not to make it worse. ;)
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#25 The End

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:00 AM - 0903725

Sure thing Luke, I can get on IRC just about any time in the early afternoon and night time.I'm on Eastern US time. Back to what you said, the cop screwed up if those are the facts. First, he was suspecting him of robbery, protocol generally states that you observe and wait for backup to arrive before engaging a potentially armed person that just committed a felony. Second, take the vehicle out of the equation because the boy was shot 35 feet away from the vehicle (some say 100s of feet honestly I have no idea), so why lethal action if he didn't take the weapon that he should've never been in reaching distance of anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against cops at all, I'm against the abuse of authority and the fact that they can kill people for very little reason but I go to jail if I do.You're misunderstood about the vets mentality though for the most part. People that have shot and killed other people don't want to do it without a good reason. Even overseas you're not allowed to just blast someone because they spooked you. In my opinion based on what I've read and heard (honestly none of us can say for sure because we weren't there) the cop could've subdued him without having to fire a lethal shot. Why aim for center mass that close to someone unless your intent is to make them die? Why not aim for the legs? Why didn't he just keep the guy in sight until backup came? The officer meant to kill someone that he didn't have to, that's manslaughter at least, he's really a disgrace to peacekeepers everywhere and just made all of their jobs a bit harder. The 'protesters' are a disgrace to humanity and freedom itself. Protesting against anything is great, even the anti-war (anti-military) protesters were ok. These people aren't protesting anything, they're using the death of a kid as an excuse to rob, steal and vandalize. What's funny to me is that the one cop shot and killed an unarmed kid yet an entire gang of cops managed not to kill anyone yet despite rampant violence, gunshots, thefts, arson etc etc. They didn't do it because they didn't HAVE to, they probably should've killed some of those stupid SOB's but they showed restraint and tried not to make it worse. ;)

I have to say I'm enjoying this convo. You have a good perspective on things and have given me new insight.  :) You're the expert here so your arguments will be more valid than mine. After reading what you said I certainly agree that he messed up protocol. I didn't realise cops had to wait for backup to arrive before engaging in those situations. In terms of the distance I'm going by what I read and saw from the prosecutor but I held the belief that he came up to the car a skirmish happened, he was shot because of the skirmish and the officer felt under threat of being overpowered and having the gun turned on him, and then he attempted to run before returning to charge at the officer. That's what I think this whole gun reaching struggle was about. I'm not sure of the exact facts but that's just what I've read in the media. In terms of what you said about keeping him in sight until backup came I completely agree with you. I watched an interview of him trying to justify himself today saying they're trained to follow the perp etc but I agree with what you are saying. 

In terms of the protests what I've always found interesting is that these lower class communities always seem to attack their own community, demolishing their own stores etc. I believe similar things happened after Martin Luther King was assassinated, in the earlier Watts Riots, and in the LA riots of '92. In terms of this particular riots I think that the cops have done a decent job, having used gas and rubber bullets. I wouldn't have deployed the dogs though just because it portrays an aggressive image in the face of global media. And I definitely believe that the restraint they showed was the right decision in trying to calm the situation as more violence from the police would have simply added fuel to the fire. 
 

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading what you had to say. You brought up a lot of points I hadn't considered or wasn't aware of. I look forward to our convo about the USMC.  :D I will most likely be online tomorrow, your afternoon and evening so all should work out. Cheers Ionzo. 


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#26 lonzomac

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 10:06 AM - 0903726

Well they don't necessarily HAVE to wait for anyone you know in case someone is in the commission of a crime and all, in any case I'll bet he's wishing he'd handled things differently. I just don't understand how someone that sloppy about their work could be issued a badge. It's scary.
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#27 TankKiller

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 03:04 PM - 0903727

I think a major issue with policing these days is that they are developing the "soldier mentality". Whereas policing is meant to be about engaging with the community I think police today are perhaps more aggressive than they have to be.

The idea of police being armed with guns is something I find odd and slightly terrifying. In the UK we have the principle of "policing by consent"--that the police force owe their allegience to the public, not to the state--and it's felt by 82% of officers here that arming them would undermine this principle.1

Each police department has a very small, highly trained armed response unit, typically armed with sub-machine guns, that they can deploy in the event of a firearms incident, but the other 95% of officers are armed with CS spray, batons, handcuffs, a radio, and in some cases tasers. (Exceptions are units protecting airports and important government buildings, who tend to be armed with assault rifles.) The structure of the police is also done in a civilian manner, with no military titles (except for sergeant). All of this is done to maintain the idea that "the police are the public and the public are the police" and to protect the idea that the police are not soldiers or a paramilitary force.2

 

I wonder if this mentality (admittedly combined with a lack of gun culture) has some pretty significant effects. For civilians, more people in the US by American officers just in January 2013 than people killed in the UK by British officers since 1900. 3,4 Similiarly, 1 British police officer was killed in the line of duty in all of 2013, where 105 American officers were killed in 2013. (No British officers were killed in 2010 or 2011, and the shooting of two in 2012 was headline news for weeks.)5,6

 

It does seem that the US is quite exceptional in how much people want to shoot each other, but Canada7 and Australia8 also have higher rates than the UK of people being killed by police and vice versa. Of course, there are nations like Sweden with comparable rates of shooting and crime to the UK.9

 

I guess the question remains on how to curb the militarisation of a state-loyal police force that feels threatened, particularly with an aim towards slowly rebuilding trust and respect between civilians and police in places where they have become two disjoint communities.

 

References:

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-19641398

[2] http://en.wikipedia....an_police_force

[3] http://en.wikipedia....s,_January_2013

[4] http://en.wikipedia...._United_Kingdom

[5] http://en.wikipedia....he_line_of_duty

[6] http://en.wikipedia....he_line_of_duty

[7] http://en.wikipedia....icers_in_Canada

[8] http://theconversati...australia-34578(Interesting read.)

[9] http://www.channel4....appy-fact-check


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#28 FreddieMercury

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 05:35 PM - 0903728

I think a root cause of crime and thus gun-crime and over-policing is the marginalization of Black people in America. 

 

http://www.citylab.c...-violence/4171/

 

I mean, if you look at this list:

 

Cities with the Highest Rates of Gun-Related Homicides
(per 100,000 people)
Rank City City Rate Metro Rate City/Metro Ratio 1 New Orleans 62.1 24.1 2.6 2 Detroit 35.9 9.3 3.9 3 Baltimore 29.7 10.3 2.9 4 Oakland, CA 26.6 7.1 3.7 5 Newark 25.4 3.3 7.7 6 St. Louis 24.1 7.2 3.3 7 Miami 23.7 6.3 3.8 8 Richmond 23.1 7.4 3.1 9 Philadelphia 20 7.8 2.6 10 Washington, D.C. 19 5.5 3.5

 

All of the cities on the top 10 cities are extremely segregated. If you go to any of them you will know to avoid the "Ghetto" areas-- aka where all the Black people are. And in those areas, jobs are hard to come by and people there are stuck in a vicious cycle of poverty. The so called "War on Drugs" has only compounded this issue-- disproportionately affecting African Americans and throwing them in jail for drug use. And the US prison system is hardly re-formative, rather it does a better job in turning small time criminals into bigger criminals. 

 

TL;DR- it's a giant sugar-fest


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#29 Mandystalin

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 03:36 PM - 0903729

 

The idea of police being armed with guns is something I find odd and slightly terrifying.

 

Given the number of guns out there in the USA, I think that their police need to be armed - every incident they go to could easily end up involving firearms, and you don't want to be sitting around being shot at with only a can of pepper spray as backup.

 

Conversely though, IMO this also means that the police over there may tend to escalate quickly - once a situation goes south chances are that a gun will get pulled, so logically it is best to be the first one with a gun out.


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