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Michael Martin

"Native Americans"

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It was just recently Thanksgiving in the US. Like every year, I had to hear about how it's a celebration of the subjugation of a native population or some damn thing like that. My personal idea about Thanksgiving is that it's a time for families to get together to share a meal, especially in a time when this country needs that. But that's not really the point.

Rabble rousers will rouse, people will find any sort of occasion to complain about stuff. Like the "Happy Holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" debate.

 

"Native Americans" originally started the problems with us. In 1622, they attacked Jamestown, the first English settlement. They killed 1/3 of the population of that town. Men, women, children, none of that mattered to them. You may say that the Jamestown settlers deserved it since it was their land. Fine. Then the next time somebody you know gets shot and killed because they wandered into gang territory in some big city, don't complain. Don't go to the police. After all, it's that gang's right to defend their territory. Right? It's the same mentality, just a few hundred years apart.

Uh, no. While I have don't have any illusions of Native Americans being infallible illustrious people who are incapable of evil (All humans possess the potential for cruelty) it was the White man who "started" it. You forget historical context, like prior settlements in the Chesapeake area like the two tries with Roanoke(?). Where the white men were driven (twice) out because of they were dumbshits and could only get food by stealing from the local Indians.

 

Jamestown wasn't much better, settled by middle-upper class people filled with Delusions of finding similar wealth to what the Spanish did in South America around this era, planned to find gold lying and around and didn't plan on working the land to you know, grow food. So they did what their predecessors did, steal and bully food from the Indians.

 

When the cultivation of tobacco finally turned things around, the English decided to steadily encroach further onto Indian lands with their tobacco, resulting in some pretty harsh skirmishes. If today Mexico decided to annex increasing portions of American land; something's gonna happen.

 

Then the settler poisoned the wine at a "peace conference" of the tribe that attacked the settlement. They killed 200 indians with the poison and killed another 50 who tried to fight them. But they were the ones who attacked the colony. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Funny thing is, something similar happened in Ronoake with no provocation. Actually caused the first settlement to flee back to England because the Indians were so angry.

 

You may also say that we tricked them into signing treaties and into signing over their land. In some cases that's true. In other cases, we simply offered their chiefs money in exchange for the land. The Chiefs accepted the money out of greed. That's not really our fault. That is them selling out their own people. Want a present day example? Okay. Let's say I'm renting an apartment from a guy who decides to sell the place. Normal people would just accept this and move to another apartment. Not the indians. No. They went and murdered the new unsuspecting tenants then acted like the victims when people came to see justice done and make sure that they couldn't kill anybody else.

I don't know a whole lot about this particular subject, but purchasing land usually didn't take place. Out of all the original 13 colonies, the ONLY major "purchased from the indians" was the Quaker founded colony of Pennsylvania, even then the Quakers did all sorts of stuff to cheat Indians out of their lands. The Louisiana purchase from France when Napolean needed money for his armies, Lewis and Clark went to their territories and basically told the Indians, "It's our land now but you're welcome to stay here"

 

My whole point is that it's not as black and white as everybody tries to make it out to be. Both sides did some pretty bad stuff. The Indians started out the relationship by turning violent and things only escalated from there. The inevitable conclusion to violence is that somebody wins and somebody loses. If they couldn't handle that reality, they shouldn't have attacked us. They lost. But through some of the best PR I've EVER seen, they've managed to turn this all around on us. Hollywood didn't help with propaganda pieces like "Dances With Wolves." They played on public sympathies to get reservations, monthly food and checks from the government. If there's one thing Americans know how to do, it's feel sorry for minorities (unless those minorities are gay, of course). The are even given free college education, if they could be bothered to tear themselves away from the bottle long enough to go. Instead, they'd rather cling to the days of old while cursing the white man, the whole while they are eating the white man's food and spending the white man's money. It's ridiculous and I'm sick of hearing about how we "abused" them. You can dismiss my VALID points and call me a racist if that will make you feel better but know this. I would be saying the same thing no matter what their skin color if it were true.

 

Indians were the victims, as with any Imperialistic happenings, the weaker party is exploited.

 

African Americans are sometimes accused of pulling the race card, sometimes its valid sometimes its not. Same thing for Native Americans. Like with any sense of clinging injustice, the rights haven't been wronged and I can certainly sympathize. The potential of a Native North American country was completely lost. From what I hear, American Indians today don't exactly get great fantastic benefits and it's certainly wrong to generalize them all like alcoholics who blame the white man too much.

 

I know that my views will be in the minority here. Sadly, this American Apologist mentality is so deeply ingrained in the American collective mind that anybody incapable of thinking for themselves automatically believes it. Even some who seem to show a glimmer of independent thought from time to time still seem to fall victim to this. I just think it's terrible. The men and woman who founded this country deserve better than how we think of them. They came across the seas to an unknown land. They faced starvation, exposure to the elements, disease and an extremely hostile and violent native population. Yet we vilify them for doing what they had to do to survive while praising the indians for attacking our people!

They were Imperialists who obviously didn't take the Golden rule to heart. Knocking over Indians wasn't exactly the hardest thing to do. The "challenges" they faced were trivial in comparison to the Indian's; if anything the diseases that Europeans brought over were MUCH more potent and is considered by most historians a major factor in the White's superiority in the era. Not to mention firearms.

 

I think this quote basically sums it up: "With great power, comes great responsibility" If you abuse your superior power, you're no better than the average playground bully. Colonists abused their power. Plain and simple.

 

People don't understand that these settlers couldn't live by today's standards and to judge them by that standard and not the Indians is terrible. I'm GLAD that those colonists were willing to be just as mean and violent as the indians. If they didn't, we wouldn't be here. We'd be living in some European socialist haven.

By that logic, you also saying African Slavery in America was also "good", for it played a significant part in building this nation.

 

Look at how many times in American history that the Indians were enemies of the state. The helped the British during the revolution. The helped the British during the War of 1812. They helped the Confederates during the Civil War (yes, I love the irony), they attacked settlers and soldiers during the Mexican-American War, they were causing civil unrest during the Spanish/American War and during the first World War. Even back in the 1970's they took the town of Wounded Knee hostage. They even went before the UN General Assembly to petition for the Indians to be considered to have their own nation within the United States. They were, as you can imagine, told no. But yet we STILL let them get away with acting like the victims. Even after all of this we still provide for them and see to all their needs. America needs to stop acting like we did something wrong.

Indians helped both sides during the revolution, and the same for 1812 and I'm not sure about the civil war but I think by then they'd been pushed to the margins so much that it really didn't matter anymore. Also, if I were in their position I would do the same, as would you.

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Freddie, this isn't a debate topic, it's a rant section.

 

 

Michael, I agree with most of what you said. It's like it is with all minorities. America wronged all minorities, America is evil, America is still so racist (well, the white Americans anyways)!

 

 

And Freddie, as for 'They don't steal our money, they aren't drunk, etc.', they are. There is an Indian reservation about an hour's drive from here. It's right next to a college town where several of my siblings have gone to college. Almost every Native American you come across is so white trash (oh, the irony...) and smells like alcohol and cigarettes. They don't do anything except drink, gamble (legal, I might add, only on the reservation), and the really active ones hunt occasionally (which they don't have to pay for, like the rest of America gets to). Not to mention that they really do get free education.

 

In short, even if we did wrong the Indians more than they deserved, we have more than payed for it.

 

 

EDIT: This post is referring to reservation Indians, the ones in Fort Hall specifically. I'm sure Native Americans who don't mooch off of the government, just like with the rest of America, are productive members of society. Heck, for all I know, Fort Hall is an isolated case.

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Thank you, Kajdav. I'm glad somebody had the balls to stand up to the Thought Police. Isn't it sad that EoB can insult white kids who think they're rappers and talk about assaulting them but I simply express my opinion on the "Native Americans"and present some facts to back that up and I get accused of being a racist and insensitive. This is how TRUE racism takes root.

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Look, there is NO THOUGHT POLICE. If there is, there won't be a rant section.

 

However, let me make this clear, it is utterly INSENSITIVE and RUDE to post something like that as what you have done in the shoutbox. You should contain your rants to the RANT section and the RANT section only.

 

Any other part of the forums, you are NOT to display such insensitivity.

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Legend, don't tell me what to post. This is what I originally posted in the shoutbox:

 

(Yesterday, 05:27 AM) Here's my thinking on the whole "native american" thing. They are the only group in the history of the world to whine about having their land conquered. I mean, a stronger force came in and took what you had. If you can't defend it, you have no right to keep it. I won't feel sorry for them. Nobody felt sorry for the Greeks or the Romans or the Mongols or the Persians or Byzantines. Survival of the fittest. It's the way of the world. Their spirit guides should have taught them that hundreds of years ago since it's the way of nature too.

 

It degraded from there because of you and EoB. I don't really give a damn what you think and you're never going to tell me what I can and can't post, especially when the only activity you and EoB have had in the past WEEK has been to come on here and take a sugar on everything I said.

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No, you also posted these:

 

Michael Martin Icon : (Yesterday, 12:45 AM) I'm sorry that you take offense to the truth. There is a way to ignore me. Do a search for me and click ignore user. But since I am the General, that may be shooting yourself in the foot when the bombs start dropping.

 

Michael Martin Icon : (Yesterday, 12:49 AM) But this is a perfect example of what I'm saying. "Native Americans" are so scared of an actual dialogue that any time somebody makes an attempt, they're labeled racist or "ignorant". It's typical victim crap. Your ancestors were just as violent, if not more so, than the settlers.

 

Michael Martin Icon : (Yesterday, 08:06 AM) Blah, Blah, Blah. I removed it. Now quit your bitchin. Samish, I suggest your stop your sugar too because I'm getting pretty sick of your mouth.

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They are the only group in the history of the world to whine about having their land conquered.

 

I don't mean to open old wounds or to start a debate in a rant topic, I just wanted to point out that many Quebecois take a similar stance, complaining about how France lost the Plains of Abraham and surrendered Quebec to the rule of the British Monarchy. It's not just a North American aboriginal thing.

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