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#1 Gandorian

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Posted 18 September 2015 - 04:42 PM - 097521

I'm interested to see where many of you stand on the issue.


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#2 Zygon

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:11 AM - 097522

TBH,  unless you are raped why the fuck consider this option?

 

Back to our regularly scheduled program.


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#3 ratratrat098

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 02:57 AM - 097523

Should always be illegal.

 

Just read this http://www.lifenews....case-shows-why/


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#4 Tiagoroth

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 04:35 AM - 097524

Abortion is almost always useful in every possible way.

 

Well regarded arguments for abortion comprise incest; rape; cases where further development and/or birth of the fetus will result in potentially fatal complications for mother and/or child. I will go so far as to point out that it is not killing anything; simply ceasing the process of rapid cell development in blastocysts/embryos.

 

We may also examine the issue of location here. In the United States, it can be extremely expensive to have a child. Say you're a young female who cannot financially support herself alone, and you are at a party. You have a few drinks, your head is not in the right place and you do not have protected sex. You get pregnant. The costs of birth alone is outrageous, never mind the cost of raising a child. In this situation, I would consider the financially feasible costs of abortion to be far more appropriate than forcing her to shoulder the burden. In countries such as Canada (long live universal healthcare), I would support restrictions on abortion since we have both free healthcare (and childbirth), better policies regarding maternity leave, and governmental assistance. It is also worth noting that in Canada, surrogate services are illegal since that would be capitalizing on child birth (really immoral), and abusing a free service to do so.

 

When most people are asked why they believe abortion is immoral, unethical, should be outlawed, etc, they will get defensive and proffer reasons that invoke harsh language to provoke a harsh and extreme response. "Murdering an unborn child", "that child could grow up to cure cancer", etc. The latter could be said of the young mother who will forfeit her future because of one night of fun. Moreover, that same logic can be applied to every social justice issue to that has ever existed: Wars, unequal opportunities growing up, stereotypes, racism, hate crimes, etc.

 

I would also like to point out that most discussions about abortion, religion, and [insert touchy subject here]. will never amount to anything productive since people will always be defensive and take sides.


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#5 Gandorian

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 06:17 PM - 097525

1. I believe life should not be valued monetarily. 

2. An unborn child is not a separate entity from who he or she will be right after birth. Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent etc- are simply stages of development in the life process. All one, unique living human being that cannot "be" anything, or anyone else. None of us skipped any stage, as we are the same living, human being from the zygote stage to the adulthood stage today, just much more developed. If any of our lives were ended at any stage- before birth, or after, none of us would be here today...no exception, no other possibilities. My son was my son before birth, and after. If my wife ended his life before being born, or after- the result would be the same...my son would not be alive today.

The argument isn't about "social injustice". It's about a human life should not be intentionally ended unless it is to save another life. 


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#6 Tiagoroth

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 07:25 PM - 097526

1. I believe life should not be valued monetarily. 

2. An unborn child is not a separate entity from who he or she will be right after birth. Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent etc- are simply stages of development in the life process. All one, unique living human being that cannot "be" anything, or anyone else. None of us skipped any stage, as we are the same living, human being from the zygote stage to the adulthood stage today, just much more developed. If any of our lives were ended at any stage- before birth, or after, none of us would be here today...no exception, no other possibilities. My son was my son before birth, and after. If my wife ended his life before being born, or after- the result would be the same...my son would not be alive today.

The argument isn't about "social injustice". It's about a human life should not be intentionally ended unless it is to save another life. 

 

The argument is always about social injustice, as it pertains to morality and ethics.

 

I'm not saying that the life of your unborn child is meant to be devalued. If my wife had to have an abortion for any reason, my daughter would still be my daughter and I would maintain an emotional connection to the idea of a daughter. That's what most people fail to realize. You can be attached to your offspring, and the idea of your offspring. If you never got to hold your child, name your child, or even know the gender of your child; what is the attachment to? Mothers will obviously feel a stronger bond than fathers in this instance; and both parents can feel a sense of loss after an abortion or even a miscarriage. Psychologists will even suggest naming the unborn child and holding a small funeral/memorial service in their memory to help both parties overcome this loss. My wife was pregnant twice, and miscarried the first time. We were devastated; but we were attached to the idea. We did not know the gender, we did not have a name, etc.

 

The Uniform Determination of Death Act states "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead." In other words, death occurs when electroencephalography activity ceases. Electroencephalography (EEG) measures brain activity in a human being, which is displayed in waves. In a fetus, the circulatory system is certainly formed, however the brain is not. In week 8 of the pregnancy, the brain begins to form. In weeks 14-16, the fetus can exhibit jerky reflex movements as a reaction to external stimuli. In week 20, the thalamus (thought of as the relay centre of the brain) is fully formed. At week 25, EEG activity begins to show regular wave patterns. The US Supreme Court ruled in the Roe v. Wade case in 1973 that abortion is legal as long as the fetus is not viable. The usual cut-off date for abortions is 21 weeks, as no fetus is viable before that. After 27 weeks, nearly all fetus is viable. Between that is a grey area. After 21 weeks, abortion is carried out if the birth of the fetus presents a health risk; or due to actual or probable fetal abnormality.


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#7 Gandorian

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:34 PM - 097527

A child in the zygote/embryonic/fetal stage isn't an "idea". He/she is a living human being who simply hasn't developed into the next stage in the life process. A child's life at any stage should not be intentionally ended regardless of how someone else feels about that life. I have an "idea" that I would love my grandson, but in reality, I do not have a living grandson who actually exists.

In many places abortion is legal at any time under certain circumstances and it does not have to be for the life of the mother.

Exactly when would it not be acceptable to to end your son/daughter's life?


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#8 Tiagoroth

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 12:09 AM - 097528

A child in the zygote/embryonic/fetal stage isn't an "idea".He/she is a living human being who simply hasn't developed into the next stage in the life process. A child's life at any stage should not be intentionally ended regardless of how someone else feels about that life.

Exactly when would it not be acceptable to to end your son/daughter's life?


It absolutely is an idea. It's a concept. You cannot picture them, you cannot see them, and so on. When is it not acceptable? When they are considered alive.

 

Even animals can have abortions. Does the same argument apply to that as well?


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#9 Member Berry

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 09:12 PM - 097529

 

A child in the zygote/embryonic/fetal stage isn't an "idea".He/she is a living human being who simply hasn't developed into the next stage in the life process. A child's life at any stage should not be intentionally ended regardless of how someone else feels about that life.

Exactly when would it not be acceptable to to end your son/daughter's life?


It absolutely is an idea. It's a concept. You cannot picture them, you cannot see them, and so on. When is it not acceptable? When they are considered alive.

 

A concept is an abstract idea; a general notion, a child in that stage isn't a "concept"  they don't just materialize out of no where when its time for them to come out into the world.

 

 

 

Abortion is almost always useful in every possible way.

 

Well regarded arguments for abortion comprise incest; rape; cases where further development and/or birth of the fetus will result in potentially fatal complications for mother and/or child. I will go so far as to point out that it is not killing anything; simply ceasing the process of rapid cell development in blastocysts/embryos.

 

We may also examine the issue of location here. In the United States, it can be extremely expensive to have a child. Say you're a young female who cannot financially support herself alone, and you are at a party. You have a few drinks, your head is not in the right place and you do not have protected sex. You get pregnant. The costs of birth alone is outrageous, never mind the cost of raising a child. In this situation, I would consider the financially feasible costs of abortion to be far more appropriate than forcing her to shoulder the burden. In countries such as Canada (long live universal healthcare), I would support restrictions on abortion since we have both free healthcare (and childbirth), better policies regarding maternity leave, and governmental assistance. It is also worth noting that in Canada, surrogate services are illegal since that would be capitalizing on child birth (really immoral), and abusing a free service to do so.

 

When most people are asked why they believe abortion is immoral, unethical, should be outlawed, etc, they will get defensive and proffer reasons that invoke harsh language to provoke a harsh and extreme response. "Murdering an unborn child", "that child could grow up to cure cancer", etc. The latter could be said of the young mother who will forfeit her future because of one night of fun. Moreover, that same logic can be applied to every social justice issue to that has ever existed: Wars, unequal opportunities growing up, stereotypes, racism, hate crimes, etc.

 

I would also like to point out that most discussions about abortion, religion, and [insert touchy subject here]. will never amount to anything productive since people will always be defensive and take sides.

Money is certainly a factor in why people get abortions but another more important factor is the ignorance that people have on abortions.  

 

According to some, abortion causes further problems such as infertility.  I doubt that the average person getting an abortion knows that there are possibilities for complications. Sure some of the infertility problems can be fixed by having another procedure done but that is essentially using more money.  A good portion of your argument is the financial aspect of the abortion but an can cause other problems down the road which would lead to more use of money.

 

There are plenty of organizations willing to help mothers (and fathers) with the costs of raising an unexpected child, potential parents just aren't aware that these organizations exist.  If people knew that there are other options besides an abortion I bet that there would be a decrease in them...Although there are always people that get into these situations because of careless and immature behavior and get an abortion to avoid the consequences of getting pregnant which is good ol stupidity. 


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#10 Gandorian

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 09:26 PM - 0975210

Tia, I really don't know where your trying to go with this. What does an idea of something have anything to do with a living human being? You are an "idea" to me, does that mean your life is as valuable as some fictional character in a book?

I do not equate human beings with animals. I believe the life of a human always trumps a life of an animal.

As you know, Roe never took into consideration when exactly a persona is alive so I'll ask you...When does a living human being become alive and what makes he/she suddenly be alive?


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#11 Gandorian

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 09:29 PM - 0975211

To expand upon my earlier post...My wife is a social worker and she recently told me about an disabled man who was about to leave the hospital, but had nowhere to live. The only family he has is a family member who said he will not help the man. The city rescue mission originally refused to house the man because of he being too difficult to house. Thankfully, my wife was able to find short-term appropriate housing for him. The man isn't loved and is an obvious financial burden. According to your logic above, it would be "useful" to end his life, right?


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#12 Tiagoroth

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 06:27 PM - 0975212

A concept is an abstract idea; a general notion, a child in that stage isn't a "concept"  they don't just materialize out of no where when its time for them to come out into the world.
 
Money is certainly a factor in why people get abortions but another more important factor is the ignorance that people have on abortions.  
 
According to some, abortion causes further problems such as infertility.  I doubt that the average person getting an abortion knows that there are possibilities for complications. Sure some of the infertility problems can be fixed by having another procedure done but that is essentially using more money.  A good portion of your argument is the financial aspect of the abortion but an can cause other problems down the road which would lead to more use of money.
 
There are plenty of organizations willing to help mothers (and fathers) with the costs of raising an unexpected child, potential parents just aren't aware that these organizations exist.  If people knew that there are other options besides an abortion I bet that there would be a decrease in them...Although there are always people that get into these situations because of careless and immature behavior and get an abortion to avoid the consequences of getting pregnant which is good ol stupidity.

 
A great deal of factors can cause or lead to infertility including childbirth. Abortions done improperly can lead to it as well. But then again, anything done improperly can be detrimental.
 
I didn't suggest that babies appear out of nowhere when it is time for them to be birthed. Lo and behold, a vaginal portal. However, it is still an idea/concept. People rarely say they are planning for a baby, only expecting, as most people realize that anything can happen. If you do not get to hold the child, name the child, see the child, or know anything about the child, it is an idea.
 

Tia, I really don't know where your trying to go with this. What does an idea of something have anything to do with a living human being? You are an "idea" to me, does that mean your life is as valuable as some fictional character in a book?

I do not equate human beings with animals. I believe the life of a human always trumps a life of an animal.

As you know, Roe never took into consideration when exactly a persona is alive so I'll ask you...When does a living human being become alive and what makes he/she suddenly be alive?
 
To expand upon my earlier post...My wife is a social worker and she recently told me about an disabled man who was about to leave the hospital, but had nowhere to live. The only family he has is a family member who said he will not help the man. The city rescue mission originally refused to house the man because of he being too difficult to house. Thankfully, my wife was able to find short-term appropriate housing for him. The man isn't loved and is an obvious financial burden. According to your logic above, it would be "useful" to end his life, right?

 

Gandorian, if you had read my post above, you would have noticed that I detailed when a being is considered alive by law and by medical standards. As to you questioning Roe not taking anything into consideration: he did.

 

I may be an idea to you, but you can see me. You can hear me. I match all the criterion necessary to be considered alive; as does that disabled man you mentioned. To some people, it would be useful to end his life. While I have toyed with the idea of such things for a creative license for dystopian society stories, I would not be party to those camps. An unborn baby in the timeframe I described does not match all the criterion for being alive, however he and I do.

 

Also, obligatory humans are animals comment just for the fun of it. (Kingdom Animalia in biology, blah blah blah.)


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#13 Gandorian

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 07:31 PM - 0975213

Being considered alive by law and medical standards is different from law to law as well as medical standards. For instance, in many states a person can be convicted of murder for killing an unborn child. Medically, there is no question an unborn child is a living human being. Seriously, are you saying a baby who's heart began beating 14 days from conception and who may kick in his/her mother's womb isn't real, but just an idea? I've sat with my wife through many ultrasounds watching my kids move around and yes...hear their heartbeats. Obviously they weren't just an idea. 

 

 

 

People rarely say they are planning for a baby, only expecting, as most people realize that anything can happen. If you do not get to hold the child, name the child, see the child, or know anything about the child, it is an idea.

That's just absurd. A mother can feel her baby kicking in her womb, but unless she holds him/her in her arms, he/she is an just idea and not real? Often, parents do name their child before birth and call them by name before they are born, but that really doesn't have anything to do with being "real".

The biggest hole in your argument is that when you say most people realize that anything can happen. In life generally speaking sure, anything can happen to anyone at any time. However, the child cannot be anything or anyone else. You act as though there's a chance a dog or cat could come out, because it's an idea and anything is possible. But only that specific living human, with a specific genetic blueprint will be born in a specific time frame, unless his/her's life is ended prior to birth. Has anyone ever skipped a stage (zygote, embryonic, fetal etc.) or "became" anything other then who they genetically already are? Of course not.

You bring up criteria for being alive. My brother was born at a mere 23 weeks gestation and weighed only 1 pound, 5 ounces. At birth his APGAR score was 0. It was 1 at one minute, and then reached 3 within the first ten minutes. Before he was born he had a heartbeat, was breathing and had reflexes and muscle activity. Functionally, he was more "alive" before birth than after. Of course my mother could never had intentionally killed him right after he was born, but she could have just before, when he was functionally more alive. There lies the hypocrisy of legalized abortion. The result would be the same either way.

 

 


 


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#14 TankKiller

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Posted 21 September 2015 - 09:52 PM - 0975214

This is a subject far too heavy and complex for me to get involved in, regardless of how strong my feelings may be on the matter.


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#15 Frank

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:27 AM - 0975215

this thread is an abortion


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#16 Aloysius

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:58 AM - 0975216

lol


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#17 Gandorian

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 12:28 PM - 0975217

this thread is an abortion

You always add such substance to discussions. ;).


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#18 Member Berry

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 07:09 PM - 0975218

this thread is an abortion

Come back!


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